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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:10 pm 
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Lieutenant, JG
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Fact: the strafing rules allow for each energy weapon of a strafing attack to attack a maximum of 5 hexes while damaging all units on those hexes while not adjusting inversely proportionally the damage or proportionally the heat that each of said energy weapon does.
Fact: a Clan micro pulse laser xor an Inner Sphere small laser can each do 3 points of damage in one TW turn for 1 heat point.
Fact: 20 Clan micro pulse lasers xor 20 Inner Sphere small lasers can do 60 points of damage in one TW turn for 20 heat points.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 20 Clan micro pulse lasers xor 20 Inner Sphere small lasers can do 300 points of damage while strafing 5 hexes in one TW turn for 20 heat points if each hex has a unit on it.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 20 Clan micro pulse lasers xor 20 Inner Sphere small lasers can do 1200 points of damage while strafing 5 hexes in just one TW turn for 20 heat points if each hex has four units on it.

Given these facts, I think this is reason to have strafing rules instantly removed from TW and put in TO.

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Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 2:56 am 
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Lieutenant General
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Can't use micro pulse or small lasers for strafing has to be lasers weapons with a max range of 5 hexes of longer.

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hmmm hooom


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:07 pm 
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Lieutenant, JG
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Um, zenorac, let's see now: 1 hex range to target plus 2 hexes at altitude 1 = 3 hexes total range, and a Clan micro pulse laser (uPL) or Inner Sphere small laser has a range of 3 hexes. Gunnery 0 plus +4 strafing plus +4 long range plus +4 average target movement modifier = +10 to-hit for Clan uPLs (remember -2 pulse to-hit modifier) or +12 to-hit for Inner Sphere small lasers. 1 hex range to target plus 0 hexes at altitude 0 Nape of Ground = 1 hexe total range, and a Clan uPL or Inner Sphere small laser has a range of 3 hexes. Gunnery 0 plus +4 strafing plus +0 short range plus +4 average target movement modifier of + 0 through +8 = +6 to-hit for Clan uPLs (remember -2 pulse to-hit modifier) or +8 to-hit for Inner Sphere small lasers.

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Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 5:43 pm 
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Supreme Mugwump
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it is not the range. it is a rule that does not allow strafing for lasers below 5 Hexes of range.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Lieutenant, JG
Lieutenant, JG

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
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I've never seen that 5 hexes rule, is that a recent TW correction? Also, I think TW allows medium lasers, PPCs, and large lasers to do devastating strafing attacks to multihex units such as grounded DropShips, mobile structures, and large water vessels during any turn; and players using such multihex units would be at a potentially severe and unbalanced disadvantage due to all that damage. Therefore, strafing rules must be removed from TW and republished as TO rules so that strafing rules become "can't be used rules unless all players of game have agreed to use them before playing said game begins".

Also, energy weapons that can be used for strafing attacks don't get an increase of their BVs of said energy weapons for all that additional damage per each turn that they can do.

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


Last edited by Alayne Leung on Fri May 06, 2016 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 1:24 pm 
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Lieutenant General
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It has been in the strafing rules as far back as I can remember.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 9:36 am 
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MechMeister
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Small and Micro Lasers are considered Point Defense weapons, so that may also be why they cannot be used for strafing.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 2:09 pm 
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Master Sergeant
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is strafing permitted by zellbrigen? also, i wouldn't want strafing rules removed from TW and put in TO because strafing was probably used by ComStar aerospace units during the Battle for Tukayyid since BattleSpace historical part mentions that ComStar aerospace units weren't damaged or destroyed as much as ComStar ground units


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 3:59 pm 
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Lieutenant, JG
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Zellbrigen prohibits using any system by multiple units and I'm not sure about a player using a strafing attack to affect multiple units and area effect weapons are prohibited.

Fact: the strafing rules allow for each energy weapon of a strafing attack to attack a maximum of 5 hexes while damaging all units on those hexes while not adjusting inversely proportionally the damage or proportionally the heat that each of said energy weapon does.
Fact: an Inner Sphere medium laser can each do 5 points of damage in one TW turn for 3 heat points.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 7 Inner Sphere medium lasers can do 35 points of damage in one TW turn for 21 heat points.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 7 Inner Sphere medium lasers can do 175 points of damage while strafing 5 hexes in one TW turn for 21 heat points if each hex has a unit on it.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 7 Inner Sphere medium lasers can do can do 700 points of damage while strafing 5 hexes in just one TW turn for 21 heat points if each hex has four units on it.
To-hit for 7 medium lasers = Gunnery 0 plus +0 short range plus +4 strafing plus target movement modifier average of +4 = +8 total to-hit. That's :crazy:

6 Clan medium pulse lasers to do 840 points of damage of strafing attack
Fact: a Clan medium pulse laser can each do 7 points of damage in one TW turn for 4 heat points.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 6 Clan medium pulse lasers can do 42 points of damage in one TW turn for 24 heat points.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 6 Clan medium pulse lasers can do 210 points of damage while strafing 5 hexes in one TW turn for 24 heat points if each hex has a unit on it.
Fact: an aerospace fighter armed with 6 Clan medium pulse lasers can do can do 840 points of damage while strafing 5 hexes in just one TW turn for 24 heat points if each hex has four units on it.
To-hit for 6 Clan medium pulse lasers = Gunnery 0 plus -2 pulse laser plus +0 short range plus +4 strafing plus target movement modifier average of +4 = +6 total to-hit. That's way more :crazy:

How do the focusing crystals of those energy weapons handle all that energy going through them per each strafing attack? Seems like said focusing crystals would be destroyed by first strafing attack, presuming such an attack is theoretically possible in real life.

I still say remove strafing rules from TW and put them in TO because the strafing rules make utterly no sense ever.

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:25 pm 
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Master Sergeant
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Rick, you made good point, but can normal small lasers (not small pulse lasers) be used for point defense? i seem to recall that only small pulse lasers, flamers, and machine guns can be used for point defense

Alayne, i don't have physics expertise or knowledge about energy weapons & their focusing crystals, so i can't answer that question

well, link to zellbrigen rules
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

i'd say strafing is permitted by zellbrigen given the second zellbrigen rule, and while a strafing attack does attack an area, that strafing attack isn't an area effect weapon

however, i'm now going to one up Alayne Leung's most recent reply and now desire and declare that strafing rules must be omitted entirely from BT, because now that i've thought about it, the strafing rules make totally no sense to be part of Total Warfare rules, and most ComStar aerospace fighters probably flew much skilled evasive thrusting flying maneuvers to avoid getting severely damaged or destroyed


Last edited by ilikeTWTOSOIOAToW on Sat May 14, 2016 12:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:41 am 
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MechMeister
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:00 pm
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Location: RCW Enterprises, SC, USA
Quote:
Rick, you made good point, but can normal small lasers (not small pulse lasers) be used for point defense? i seem to recall that only small pulse lasers, flamers, and machine guns can be used for point defense
According to HMAero (i.e., not going through and checking the books), Small Lasers are considered Point Defense, along with Flamers, Small Pulse Lasers, all Machine Guns and stuff like Narc, Beagle, Guardian ECM & TAG.

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~~~~~
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Master Sergeant
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thanks Rick for that info

most recent previous reply edited for all to read


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:22 pm 
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Lieutenant, JG
Lieutenant, JG

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 145
Thank you zenorac, cobayashimaru, Rick Raisley, and ilikeTWTOSOIOAToW for your responses. And I stand corrected about this topic's subject's title, and I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience.

Following text typed July 29, 2017: Let's also remember that I think this is correct that an aerospace unit making a full 700 (or 875 if each hex has an opposing structure) to 840 (or 1,050 if each hex has an opposing structure) points of damage strafing attack also has its lasers' ranges, mentioned above, short & medium & long & (extreme ranges and LOS of Tactical Operations) ranges multiplied by five or ten according to Total Warfare; that makes for said aerospace fighter for the most part practically unstoppable against ground units & ground structures. What happens when a 100 ton Inner Sphere aerospace fighter such as a tournament approved expendable aerospace fighter or drone aerospace fighter, armed with 24 medium lasers on its nose and 24 medium lasers on its aft, uses all 48 of those medium lasers for strafing during a turn? That could be a total of 6,000 points of damage in just that turn provided that there are 4 opposing units per each of 5 hexes and also provided that there are 5 opposing structures per each of those 5 hexes, that's super crazy! See example provided by this link:

http://www.heavymetalpro.com/forums/vie ... 26#p246626

:crazy: :o

How unbalancing a Crazy Strafey would theoretically be against a mobile structure.

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Lieutenant, JG
Lieutenant, JG

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 145
Good CDT morning Tom,

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
From FanPro AT2 Revised Edition p. 66: Weapon Limits
Fighters (Conventional/Aerospace) are limited to 5 weapons per arc when using standard armor.
Nose: Max 5 weapons + Left Wing Max 5 weapons + Right Wing Max 5 weapons + Aft Max 5 = 20

Using ferro-aluminum the wings are limited to 4 in each location.
Nose: Max 5 weapons + Max 4 weapons + Right Wing Max 4 weapons + Aft Max 5 = 18

From Catalyst Game Labs Classic BattleTech TechManual Designing Aerospace Units (copy and paste) from PDF copies.
Step 1: Design the Chassis p. 183

Space
Unlike Combat and Support vehicles, aerospace units derive their space limits (weapon slots) from their unit type rather than their weight. For conventional and aerospace fighters, this limit is set at 5 weapons per arc (Nose, Left Wing, Right Wing and Aft). Though the use of certain armor types
may reduce this number, construction can never increase this quantity.

Step 3: Add Armor pp. 191-192
Space: Carrying ferro-aluminum armor in any form affects the allotment of weapon slots on conventional and aerospace fighter units. The amount of slots taken by a given armor type (and the locations affected) are shown under the Slots column (appropriate to the unit’s Tech Base) in the Aerospace Armor Weapon Space Table (Fighters Only) (see p. 192). An entry of “NA” indicates that units using that technology base may not install the listed armor type.

Aerospace Armor Weapon Space (Fighters Only) Table p. 192
Light Ferro-Aluminum: Inner Sphere 1 slot(Aft) Maximum of 19 weapons; Not available to Clan
Ferro-Aluminum: Inner Sphere & Clan 2 (1 slot in each wing) Maximum of 18 weapons
Heavy Ferro-Aluminum: Inner Sphere 4 slot( 1 slot per Arc) Maximum of 16 weapons; Not available to Clan
I think that those three variations of Ferro-Aluminum armor should be available to the Clans because their Scientists developed or reverse engineered them by probably at least 3080. Each Crazy Strafey uses standard armor.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
FanPro AT 2 Revised Edition pp. 35-36 Strafing.
Page 35
"A unit making a strafing attack chooses from one to five consecutive hexes along the attack line."

Looking at the illustrations the attack line equals the flight path of the fighter which means to me the pilot is firing weapons pointing forward in the wings and nose.

Page 36:
"Make separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target. Apply weapon hits using standard Classic BattleTech rules."

The rule above only makes sense to me since the attack is using energy weapons (lasers, pulse lasers, or PPCs) is that if a weapon fails the To-Hit Roll the weapon gets another chance to hit the next target in the hexes being strafed. A weapon that makes the To-Hit Roll causes damage and would not be rolled again.
I'm not so sure that during a strafing attack, a weapon may only attack one target, and if that weapon misses a target, then said weapon may attack another target. There must be a strafing example, preferably an example that has 4 targeted units per hex of 20 targeted units total during strafing attack example and at least one building hex with one or more units inside said building of said strafing attack example like infantry squad(s) or platoon(s) inside that building for example.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
From Catalyst Game Labs TW Air-to-Ground Attacks p. 243 (copy and paste) from PDF copies.

"Firing Arcs: Fighters, aerodyne small craft and aerodyne DropShips may only use the weapons in their nose and front wing locations."

Based on the type of armor and technology base fighters could fire 12, 13, or 15 direct-fire energy weapons in a strafing run.

Strafing p. 243
"A unit making this type of attack chooses from one to five consecutive hexes along the attack path. These hexes must lie in a straight line. The unit may fire one, some or all of its non-ammo-dependent direct-fire energy and pulse weapons when strafing.

The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target. No matter how many targets are attacked, each weapon only fires once for the purposes of heat and ammunition tracking. Apply weapon hits using the standard rules for the appropriate unit type. Use the column of the appropriate Hit Location Table that corresponds to the attack direction, based on the direction from which the fighter entered the target’s hex, rather than the fighter’s position at the end of the Movement Phase.

Most strafing attacks must take into account only the terrain in the target’s hex. However, units flying at Altitude 1 (NOE) find it harder to establish a clear line of sight and so must also take into account the terrain in the hex adjacent to the target and along the flight path in the direction that the attacking unit entered the target’s hex. If the hex in front of the target is two or more levels higher than the level of the target unit, the target is in a dead zone and cannot be attacked."

In Catalyst Game Labs BT strafing rules my understanding is that the strafing fighter mounting 15 medium lasers, as stated small and micro lasers cannot be used, has to decide how many weapons will be used and that the strafing attack will hit 1 to 5 hexes. Opting for maximum effect the fighter fires 15 lasers in a strafing run five hexes long.

Each weapon determines if it hits each target, friendly or hostile, in the five hexes. Every hit causes damage to a target. If one follows the rules as written the energy from each weapon, that hit a target or not, passes through to the next four hexes the process of rolling To-Hit and damage for all weapons being fired.
See #2 The unit may fire one, some or all of its non-ammo-dependent direct-fire energy and pulse weapons when strafing.

http://www.heavymetalpro.com/forums/vie ... 25#p246725

#2 seems to say that a strafing attack can't be done with ammo-dependent weapons.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
The idea that the energy from a laser that hit a target has a chance to damage to more targets does in my opinion pass the common sense test.
Even without generating additional heat for the multiple targets, and also without increasing an aerospace fighter's BV for all those attacks that can be done during a strafing attack? Seriously?

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
My understanding is that when the laser beam hits a target the firing weapon would not get another chance to hit any more targets. Laser beams that fail the To-Hit roll get another chance until they hit a target or the strafing run ends.
I think that contradicts your previous quote of "The idea that the energy from a laser that hit a target has a chance to damage to more targets does in my opinion pass the common sense test.".

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
I think, even if the all the firing weapons get chances To-Hit in all hexes, the strafing rule works, but does not unbalance the game as suggested or that it should be moved to Tactical Operations.
Even without generating additional heat for the multiple targets, and also without increasing an aerospace fighter's BV for all those attacks that can be done during a strafing attack? Both of those don't unbalance BT games? Seriously?

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Of course I do have a quibble since ammo-dependent direct-fire ballistic weapons being used for strafing is well documented and can be viewed on the Internet.
I would say that such an attack is perhaps a multiple strike attack like how in Tactical Operations there is I think a rule that allows an autocannon to simultaneously attack two targets in a turn provided that both targets are adjacent to each other (I think).

Regarding how that an aerospace fighter may only use weapons in its nose and front wing locations for a strafing attack, I have redesigned Crazy Strafeies to not include aft mounted medium lasers (each Crazy Strafey now has fifteen medium pulse lasers: 5 per nose, 5 per left wing, 5 per right wing). So a 100 ton Crazy Strafey aerospace fighter has the potential to do: 2,625 damage points (when using 15 Clan Medium Pulse Lasers) in one Total Warfare turn, xor 2,250 damage points (when using 15 Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers) in one Total Warfare turn? Here is a website that talks about BT Medium Pulse Laser(s).
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Medium_Pulse_Laser

2,625 damage points per turn and 2,250 damage points per turn are each a :crazy: high number of damage points from an aerospace fighter, and they get even more :crazy: when Tactical Operations advanced abilities to-hit modifiers and A Time of War quirks to-hit modifiers are used in addition to targeting computer and pulse laser to-hit modifiers when doing strafing per each turn, and they get even more :crazy: because ammo and heat isn't accounted for each of those strafing shots per turn of strafing attack nor is BV accurately adjusted for all that damage.

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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