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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:16 am 
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I need some help. What would these real world items be in BT?

LAAW/ AT-4 = SRM ?

Hellfire AGM = ?

25mm Chain gun (Bradley) ?
TOW ?

30 mm chain gun (Apache) ?

With Hellfire AGM being laser guided, wouldn't Vehicle/air craft need a TAG? And isn't there a man portable TAG in BT?

Thanks

Highlander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:14 pm 
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This is an old, old, old debate; One BattleTech fans have argued over for decades... but simply put:

Being that BattleTech is a FANTASY game and not even close to being hard sci-fi, where game balance and practical playsize has dictated range and accuracy (if you can call it that) that is vastly inferior to even WWII hardware. At the same time, the amount of damage lasers do (like sloughing away half a ton of armor in one hit) even using 20th century armor would require such massive amounts of energy you could power NYC for a week... at which point you're dumping so much energy into a LASER you should be able to hit the freaking moon with it!

Even something as simple as the "machine gun" -- a half ton machine gun with an upper effective range of 90 meters? What the **** is it firing?!? .22 Short from a 2" barrel?!? I have an air rifle with a better effective range!

At the same time way, way, way back when all we had was THE "autocannon" (now known as a AC/5), it was said to be akin to a 20th century tank gun; that still gives no indication of size but in terms of range even the "crappy" little 75mm in a M4 Sherman outperforms it. Damage-wise you could probably extrapolate that something like a 105mm would be akin to the AC/10 on damage, but in terms of range by the time you get up to a meaningful 105mm you're pushing up towards long-tom ranges. Even assuming smooth-bore line-of-sight, 450 meters is so short most snipers don't even get out of bed for a target so close!

EVEN if you include the so called 'extreme range" rules, none of the non-artillery 'Mech mounted weapons can reach ranges someone firing .50 BMG can hit with ease EYEBALLING for windage, Coriolis effect, range, and drop. An M1 Abrams would be putting rounds into BattleMechs not only before the 'Mechs could get a single shot back, those 'Mechwarriors likely wouldn't even know what's firing at them or even from where.

It's a fantasy game with numbers chosen not for real world analogues, but (at least originally) for game balance, don't even TRY to match up 21st century hardware to it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:23 am 
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Thanks. I was trying to put real names to BT weapons for "fluff" when filling out the back ground info.

I always pictured Long Toms as 155mm?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Only to confuse matters, the text for the AC/5 might show you how 'crazy' BT's universe is. Check Sarna's wiki page for the AC/5
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon/5

Particularly this part:
Quote:
Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/5s usually having a long range with a small to moderate damage level.

An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "shot", while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, but causing higher damage. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.
So an AC/5 or AC/20 is NOT any one weapon system, it's a classification for a wide variety of different weapons that deliver the same general performance. Some might fire a single heavy round, others might be dumping dozens or even hundreds of high velocity lightweight rounds at the target.

I actually just came across that today while looking for something else, thought of this thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:01 pm 
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I tried toying around with the idea that the LB-X style shotgun effect could work for all autocannons, yeah it was not well received when I tried it with my group, they like the idea, but said BT was the wrong game for it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:23 pm 
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AHEAD ammo for the Oerlikon 35mm autocannon family. There's your real world LBX.

As for artillery, I always imagined Thumpers as being light stuff like 105mm, Snipers as 152 or 155mm, and Long Toms as the 203mm SMITE button you push when you want that hill over there to be a height level or two shorter, like the American M110 family or the Russian 2S7 Pion. But I recall that someone around here (Cray?) did some calculations and estimated that Long Toms are actually like 11" naval or railroad guns. Either way, the canon certainly represents Long Toms as very large weapons. YMMV.

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Last edited by Shades of Grey on Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:13 pm 
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The name Long Tom was used in WW2 by some artillery units for their 155mm guns.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:28 am 
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Quote:
The name Long Tom was used in WW2 by some artillery units for their 155mm guns.
That would be this bad boy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/155_mm_Gun_M1

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:08 am 
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So what AC would be on a Bradley (M2/M3) ? RAC 5 or AC5 maybe?
And any idea what would take the place of the TOW launcher? SRM2? But ammo is on 14 reloads and I think srm2 with 1 ton is 50?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:15 am 
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Big single missiles like TOW are probably best represented by Thunderbolt launchers. Light autocannons like the Bushmaster are probably AC/5's or so.

I recall that LONG ago, one of the semi-canon explanations for big LRM and SRM racks was that anti-missile and ECM technology had progressed such that single missiles were no longer reliable on the battlefield, so saturation fire became the norm to ensure hits. Of course, the REAL explanation is FASA's unhealthy fascination with anime, but that's its own discussion.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:20 am 
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Quote:
So what AC would be on a Bradley (M2/M3) ? RAC 5 or AC5 maybe?
And any idea what would take the place of the TOW launcher? SRM2? But ammo is on 14 reloads and I think srm2 with 1 ton is 50?
I have gone with the LAC5 and Thunderbolt 10 (OS) from Unbound for mimicking those types of weapons, so 25mm to 35mm I use the LAC5 for.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Thanks :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:23 pm 
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The new 40mm autocannon that is replacing the 30mm Rarden on the Warrior IFV and is being used on the British Armies new recon vehicle what would you scale that at Ac/10?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:52 pm 
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if a 30 mm is a LAC5 then something that fires rounds that are twice as heavy would be an LAC10

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:15 pm 
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At this point, I would say use a RAC5 or build a custom LAC10 and LAC20.

The game lost a lot things when we got the weapons bonaza of THB, MaxTech and the Jihad and Dark Age stuff. Some are fine and could have been already in the game from day one, some like a mech size paint gun or a nail gun...yeah nope.

The other Autocannons from THB, like the HV and Caseless are good ideas, poorly handled and should have been worked further along, also don't forget the standard ACs can use different ammo types which further expands their use.

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Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:23 pm 
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btw: the ridiculous ranges in BT can be easily mended: just say that the distance between hexes is like 500 meters and a machinegun suddenly shoots 1500 meters, wich is perfectly ok for a heavy machinegun.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Quote:
btw: the ridiculous ranges in BT can be easily mended: just say that the distance between hexes is like 500 meters and a machinegun suddenly shoots 1500 meters, wich is perfectly ok for a heavy machinegun.
... and now your 100 ton 3025 assault 'mech is moving 600 kph at a walk, unless of course you're willing to say each turn between being able to fire is two minutes long.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:58 am 
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I have chalked up the range issue to two things:

1. PFM. Pure F***ing Magic, as we said in the military.

2. Real weapons have two ranges -- a maximum range (how far the projectile will blindly fly) and a shorter (often much shorter) useful or effective range, where it can be aimed accurately with useful effect on the target. For example, a typical .22 LR rifle like the Ruger 10/22 can theoretically shoot a bullet over a mile, but its effective range is measured in tens of meters. Combine that reality with the highly mobile nature of Battletech combat, varied terrain, and so on, and suddenly the short effective ranges of Battletech weapons make a little more sense. Not much more, but at least a little.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:40 am 
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For those of us who play miniature war games, BT is not a war game any more than D&D is a war game...It is science fantasy, originally designed for ease of play and then the rules expanded to cram in as many "war gamey" elements as possible, but nowhere near the level of Squad Leader...

My group (in Hawaii) modded the rules to give the battles a more wargame feel, using metric measurement for ranges and multipliers of x5 for weapons and another for movement, in order to keep the speed accurate. In modern era warfare, a tank could fire 3 to 5 kilometers. Our mod had LRMs with over 1 km range, on a table where 1mm = 1m. It did give the game a better feel but slow units were worse off and players soon took advantage of that and modified units around range and speed...but that's just natural.

One GM introduced early versions of wire guided missiles, such as the Soviet Sagger. ECM has no effect, because they are hard wired. The weakness of the Sagger was that they could be spotted and were slow enough to shoot down or even dodge. TOW missiles were just deadly and the GM allowed them 10 and 15 points of damage each. The Sagger was nasty as it could be deployed 30m away from the firer's position and operated remotely.

Conversion of equipment performance for gaming purposes is subjective and no two game designers agree on everything. I still remember discussing with Perkins on how to incorporate steel armor into a BT equivalent. The first thing you do, is establish a baseline of measure, such as kinetic energy and what it takes to penetrate various depths of armor...Extrapolation is used once you conclude X ballistic weapon does X amount of damage, which means X energy weapon is the equivalent and uses X amount of power to do it...

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