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I was wondering what would have happen if during the Liberation of the Hegemongy, that the FedSuns had openly supported Kerensky and put their full support behind him and the SLDF, would it have changed the outcome, i.e. Kerensky leaving and taking the SLDF with him, or would that have happen anyway?

Would the over all outcome, the Succession Wars, have happened or would it have be a different set of manuevering?

How would the other Houses react to this, the openess of the FedSuns fully supporting the SLDF? Would this force the others to do the same or not?

Okay looking forward to the comments and thoughts on this.

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Karagin-

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Would open support change anything? Probably not, aside from rubbing it in the faces of the other House Lords (I realise this is a debate in and of itself).

Had John Davion thrown in support with General Kerensky and the SLDF a couple things could have happened. First and foremost is the Davion representatives on Terra would be killed. There is a matter of vagueness about who was there but let's presume non family members for the moment.

Amaris would have given John Davion the excuse not to get public support behind him and the SLDF. He needs more of a reason. Now if you have read the Fed Suns source book, there is a passage that says that Richard Cameron gave John Davion his last will and testament stating that if anything were to happen to him and a suitable heir within the Cameron bloodline couldn't be found, then John Davion would become the First Lord.

This would have given the FedSuns the impetus to actively support the SLDF and the drive to liberate Terra. The other houses, Liao and Draconis Combine, would immediately contest the will and the Succession Wars would have started while the SLDF was still trying to get rid of Amaris.

The ensuing wars, SLDF vs Rim Worlds Republic Forces, then against the House Militaries would have destroyed the Star League Army to the point that the Exodus wouldn't have occured, Comstar would not form until much later, and finally technological recovery wouldn't be as progressive until the Dark Age era (I am making a guess that the House Lords reign in their forces much later than earlier).

Now let's presume that John had family on Terra (ie a brother or sister). Open support wouldn't be in his best interests unless Amaris made a fatal error: killing said sibling. If this were to happen, then John could drum up popular support from the people of the Fed Suns, then the SLDF would be bolstered by the RCT's of the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns.

If the will were to be verified, then John Davion would inherit the mantle of First Lord and have the backing of the SLDF to back the AFFS with General Kerensky and his staff at its helm. The other Lords would not allow this to happen as it would be a political error on their part as well as committing economic suicide if the Star League were to remain after the liberation.

Not to overstate the obvious here. All it would really do is delay the enivatable or hurry it up. The Star League was founded on political and military maneuvering and the House Lords in a lot of ways had legitamate and selfish reasons for seeing the League fall.

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Once more unto the breach.

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I agree with Seawolf. The Star League was based upon the "I've got a bigger stick than you, do what I say" principle. Despite the legends and the hype, from what I've gathered, the League couldn't take down a house if that house decided to secede; it would fall prey to the piranha theory that kept the Successor States in check during the succession wars. The Star League could attack a house, but after it was done bleeding itself dry against a nearly-equal opponent (stack up level 1 IS forces against level 2 IS forces, and you'll find that a good commander can wipe the floor with the "superior" technology force), it could no longer claim to have a "bigger stick" over the other houses.

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Ya Rl'yeh!

Okay, I did not find a mention of a last will of Richard Cameron expressing anything about a direct appointment of House Davion to the position of First Lord, should Cameron be killed.

However...on Page 58 of the PDF'd House Davion, there is the following:

"Davion tradition has it that prior to the execution of Richard Cameron, the First Lord named John Cameron as Regent for his two year old daughter Amanda. Certainly, House Davion would later use tradition as the key to its claim as rightful heir to the post of First Lord, while none of the other Houses could advance anything so significant on their own behalf."

As to the topic...

Hard to call overall. If you take out "the writer force" behind any topic and weigh completely by what seems reasonable, then these are changes/outlines as I would see them:

Hegemony Invasion:

First, Amaris is likely to retaliate if Davion overtly supports Kerensky. That much is a given as Seawolf has pointed out. Amaris is not hard to call in doing this as he is pretty much the archetypal despot.

Second, based on the above, Amaris killing off Davionist peoples/supporters. This might rally the Davion people more for the cause other than simple fiat by John Davion.

Result: Amaris is still doomed, it probably just happens faster.

Post-Amaris League Actions, Succession Wars, Etc.:

Were Davion to throw support behind Kerensky (wouldn't happen, but ok) I see the following:

The High Council would still probably break up, temporarily. One Successor State going to with the Regular Army means the balance tips toward order, not chaos in the short term. This is simple reasoning because the House Lords, every one of them, is playing the game to amass power - not simply go to war. Why?

Going to war and amassing power are two distinct issues and one does not equal the other. In many cases, going to war is the wrong way to amass power because it is always a more efficient thing to have power bestowed by a greatful populace than to take it by force. Force means anger and anger robs power unless fear is used to counter the anger, which rarely works for long anyway.

However, the House's belligerancy being what it was, the Succession War was inevitable because no one could agree on a compromise choice for First Lord. Thus, Kerensky left and the bottom fell out of any support for a Star League.

But, if Davion or another House were to declare for the Regular Army in some fashion as to make a Star League with whatever concessions were required things change. Of course, a House would never willingly commit political suicide, but for the sake of discussion, let's assume House Davion does.

When the other Great Houses see this, it will affect their political movments as much as a stone dropped in a pond would affect all its borders. So, assuming Davion declares for the League, the following conclusions are reached, at least in my view:

A. House Kurita: The easiest to call. Kurita would take the opposite of Davion in just about anything, but even Minoru Kurita would balk at facing even a depleted Regular Army and Davion's legions. Yet, honor being what it is and emotional pride built on honor would probably mean Kurita would fight the Star League cause, seeing this moment of disorder as the last opportunity to grab more power and larger share. Kurita wants Star League death. Pretty simple to see. He probably would know he couldn't win on his own, so would need help....

B. House Liao: Which brings up the Liao question. Liao is already tusseling with Davion (the Border War/Redfield campaign in 2760-62) would mean they were just itching for a final showdown. Barbara Liao being no fool would see the same thing Kurita would; this is the last opportunity to rid her House of the meddling Davions once and for all. However, being no fool, Liao is going to weigh things with a tad less emotion than Kurita. The Regular Army would mean the Davions would have help and the fight would not be even because even if Kurita was available to ally with, the majority of Kuritan forces are clear across the Sphere with only the tenuous Terran corridor as cooperative space. Would Liao ally with Kurita or would neutrality hold the day? Liao certainly would not ally with Davion in the cause of a Star League, but also may not stand in the way because Liao is likely to take it on the chin for doing so. If Liao joins with the anti-League forces, it does so somewhat unwillingly and probably looking to join the party as late as possible.

C. House Marik: Kenyon Marik does not like Kerensky. Kenyon Marik has distinct personality flaw in allowing his likes/dislikes to weigh his opinions, or so it would seem from the House Marik book. Kenyon Marik would probably decide on an emotional basis.

In politics, that is a no no.

Marik would be for a war on the side of the Anti-League. Parliment would be on the usual side - their own. The people would be Pro-League.

The actions of Davion would mean Resolution 288 goes no where in Parliment and Marik does not get discretionary powers because there would be no war looming to force Parliment to make that move.

Kerensky still being around means the Free Worlds populace, generally, is not Anti-League. The puts Kenyon Marik in a poor position to help Kurita.

If Marik wanted to help Kurita, he does so without the support of the majority of his state unless something serious were to happen...like an invasion by Steiner....

D. House Steiner: Previous to the Amaris Crisis, Steiner had a pitching economy (39 House Steiner PDF) and made Michael Steiner an unpopular guy during the Kerensky Regency previous to the Amaris Crisis because Mike wanted more mechs. Michael Steiner wrote in his memoirs he wondered about Council edicts and about the affect on the Star League itself. Generally, Steiner was held as not being very supportive of the League in the standard history.

When Michael died and Robert ascended the throne, there seemed to be degree of indecision. Robert is quoted as saying, paraphrased, he did not want to support the Star League versus Amaris because "Who knew if we would gain anything by helping General Kerensky?" If they supported or didn't support Kerensky, it did not matter, because as Robert Steiner saw things, control was paramount and opting out of the war preserved Steiner armies to maintain that control.

That and the rest of his statements would mean Steiner is not likely to support the Pro-Leagueists under Davion. Nor, however is Steiner likely to support Kurita's Anti-Leagueists. He is an opportunist looking to preserve his state and maintain control.

However, Steiner's populists and Estates General were firmly in support of the Star League. In the standard history, loyalist support was so strong as to conduct riots and such when they heard the League was dissolved.

In the alternate history we are talking about, the Loyalist cause is probably enough to rip the Lyran Commonwealth to pieces as the Federation of Skye and the Tamar Pact remained as political bastions. Or, it is enough to force the Steiners into support of Kerensky/Pro League/Davion.

However, Jennifer Steiner would replace Robert on the eve of the standard history Succession Wars, and she seemed only too ready to go war. Doing so though, might mean the general destruction or peaceful dissolution of the Lyran Commonwealth, with parts supporting the Pro Leagueists and other parts opting out of the war.

Conclusion:

Overall, I see the Council being "reformed" under Kerensky with Davion's full support and certain portions of House Steiner at first, assuming the Steiners don't get convinced and are ousted. A civil war is not wholly removed from being a possiblity in House Steiner.Liao might send a representative if only to maintain an air of uncertainty until Barbara Liao decides way to go. Marik is probably not going to attend until he figures out if he has enough support to do something against the Pro-Leagueists. Marik is going to probably try to side with Kurita only to throw his state into civil war, but he has to know that his state will lose whatever position it has in doing so. No one joins anything if Davion is put in command, though, so the Council would form under strain.

Liao is a wildcard though. Davion versus Liao is an even playing field to me, despite writer contrivance. Liao is unlikely to move unless someone else shows up to support Kurita. Unless Liao joins, the full force lands on Kurita.

Kurita is bound by honor to keeping pursuing the insanity of trying to fight both the Regular Army, the Davions, and to a lesser degree, Lyran Loyalists showing up on the Rasalhague border. Rasalhague might even try to break away from Kurita while the larger show plays out.

However, Kurita doesn't have a chance, not unless Liao or Marik get into the act. And either of those seems unlikely, Liao because they know they could not take on Davion/Star League units and Marik because he could not drum up the support to get Res 288 passed.

If Kerensky decided to stay with Davion support, it seems likely Kurita would fall, Steiner would be neutral unless forced into action either way, Liao would hold off until pushed to support Kurita, and Marik would be bogged down in inter-Provincial politics until either a civil war ensues (which Liao or Steiner might capitalize on again) or Marik is ousted.

Of course, this brief examination does not take other factors or even the actions of others (like the Taurians who might want their land back from the Davions). Yet, it seems less likely that were Kerensky to stay, a Succession War history that made Battletech what it is/was would ensue. There would simply be no popular support unless the last pillar of the Star League unity were removed i.e. Kerensky.

Note, that this all assumes Davion is willing to play second fiddle to Kerensky re-taking position as Regent until some political solution is reached. Davion is also unlikely as a choice for Regent - the only support it would have would be from House Davion with foreseeable results. That the statement comes out of the House Davion book makes me think that it was inserted as a "factional motivation" rather than a serious action by Cameron. People across the states would support Kerensky but supporting Kerensky does not mean they support Davion. But that is a whole other subject....

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[size=85]To indeed be a god. [/size]

So in a nutshell, the Star League would survive with one less member.

Or more accurately, the Kuritans would get smashed, the Davions and Steiners would pick up a few parsecs of territory like they did off the Periphery realms, and the rest of the Combine would be a Star League protectorate for a decade or two or until the League decreed that it had been suitably rebuilt into something that wasn't a threat to the Star League.

The four Great Houses would then be the voting members of the Star League with Kerensky being Regent until whatever remnants of the Cameron family were around grew up old enough to become the leaders again.

And I think he would bloody well take better care about making sure THEY grew up to be something other than a spoiled brat with a god complex....

And the Star League would continue for some time, though the remaining Great Houses would vote through bills that allowed them to build bigger armies "for the duration of the military crises" that would have been the Amaris Crisis and the Kuritan Rebellion.

And they wouldn't give that up afterwards, so the remaining Great Houses would be more powerful after the Kuritan Rebellion.

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While this is slightly off topic, can someone explain to me why a military force, many of which if not most, are from the Terran Hegemony, would suddenly decide that the oath they took to protect the people of the League/Hegemony, was suddenly far less important than leaving? You can make the case that they might think there would be less war but they also know all of the people they are sworn to protect are going to get killed, lose their rights, etc when they leave as the predatory house powers, most of which are dictatorships, will swoop down and take them by force. Besides the fact that this is the way the history is written, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me......

Simple law of attrition. By the end of the Amaris Coup the SLDF was operating at roughly 50 - 60% strength (I think I am fudging the figures a bit, the reality looks like 40 percent in some cases). Relaise this is in actual combat personnel not support. The Great Houses were making offers to these experienced combatants to join their armies after these people saw the horrors of Amaris's coup.

At this point the SLDF saw the writing on the wall and couldn't come up with any legit reason to stick around ro what to do until DeChevalier came up with the Exodus. So they made a decision to go somewhere else.

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Once more unto the breach.

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Me either. Most people in the world do not run from their problems because there is no where to go.

I cannot really think of an historical precedent where a loyal military commander, bereft of higher political command, decides to leave with his army into enforced exile. Seems counterintuitive. Some examples from the late Byzantine Empire spring to mind as well as a number of Medieval Crusader notes, but nothing that fits very well. Alexander the Great is a possibility, but he wasn't going into exile; he wanted to explore and smack Persia around.

Although, I guess the 13th Century Mongols would be a sort of fit too, minus the exile part, - if you think of Genghis Khan as an "explorer" rather than a "help myself-er to than land-er over there-er."

Anyway, yeah, I do not "get it" either. On the flipside though I happily think on it like this:

If we all had at our call a fleet of ships, thousands of troops fanatically loyal to us more than they seemed to be loyal to the Hegemony, what would we do? Fight a battle and possibly lose or flip the bird to everyone who stripped our position and hop onto our starship?

And, if we think about it, the SLDF at the time of the Exodus was a cult of personality in the same vein of Alexander's Macedonians. Alexandr Kerensky's troops loved him to a degree more than they loved their nation (such is why throughout history, generals in esteem with their troops are disposed of as soon as possible lest they get ideas...).

So, he has this fleet, knows a big war is coming, and decides to leave and build his own empire because he loves the "idea" of the Star League more than he loves the actual worlds it was built on.

Strange, I grant you, but when we factor the capability to go anywhere with FTL capability and the fact there are countless places to live, the possiblity for Exodus seems less problematic when one wants to break off from society and form his own empire. Ol'Terra is just one nondescript dirtball, after all.

Suddenly, contrary to what Mum told you, "running from your problems" is can-do reality.

Man, do I wish I had FTL he he he.

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[size=85]To indeed be a god. [/size]

Nutshell, indeed. You see, I have this problem with editing in that once I get going, I rarely shut up....

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[size=85]To indeed be a god. [/size]

Let's look at the Exodus as a two fold deal. Kerensky was pulling a King Authur, he leaves to return when the Inner Sphere needs him and his troops the most. To him and it seems 80% of the SLDF that was better part of valor.

Also you could look at it like this in Kerensky's mind the SLDF was defeated, even with their victory over Amaris, the second the House Lords started to court SLDF units to defect to their house militaries. So the Exodus was more of a beaten commander retreating from the changes brought about by the defeat of Amaris. Similar examples would be any of the nations beaten by the Germans in WW2 or any war for that matter. The surviving units go into exile to fight on or to regroup and come back when they have the numbers and material and money to do so.

Sure the SLDF could have entrenched in the primary Hegemongy worlds and told the other houses to go get stuffed, but how long before those same houses would figure out that the SLDF was a paper tiger at this point and attack them any ways? Which leads to original question I asked, what if one of the houses, in this case Davion, sided with the SLDF from the start of the campaigin to liberate Terra, would this have changed things or not...

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

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Which unfortunatley goes back to my original statement... It would either delay the inevitable, or make it come that much faster.

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Once more unto the breach.

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Thanks everyone. From your responses, there is obviously a lot of information that I am missing. I did not realize that the houses backed out of their commitment to the Star League and did not support the Star League forces to help retake the Hegemony/Star League from Amaris. I also didn't realize that there were no house troops in the SLDF at that point so the SLDF troops would have been depleted considerably at that time.

My only thought at this point, with a total lack of "historical" information behind it, is I think it would have been possible to pick a core of the Hegemony to defend and once the Hegemony or the Star League rebuilt itself, it could have either taken back those worlds that were lost to the great houses or definitely prevented those great houses from taking over the Hegemony/Star League. Again, that is all based on considerable speculation and not a shred of evidence. Call it faith perhaps?

Nope... There wasn't official support given to the SLDF Army. A lot of the "support" given was done under the table by some of the Houses, such as the FedSuns, CapCon (Yes CapCon), and suprisingly enough the FWL. This was humanitarian in nature only, and nothing military at all. This was the only way to keep Amaris from killing House Reps. The Draconis Combine went out of their way to tell the Star League to go sit and spin, and some cases the SLDF had to fight against Draconis Combine Forces to get to their own bases. Steiner, being the merchants that they were, gave aid for money and considerations if the Throne was restore. The impression i got was that no one knew that Richard Cameron was dead until after the liberation. If you get the chance, read through all of the books and you'll get a fair idea of what was heading down the SLDF's throat. Getting attacked from all sides would have destroyed the SLDF. Remeber, despite warnings from Rommel and others, Hitler fought a three front war and lost. If Kerensky stayed and fought, he would be fighting a war with complete gaurantee of loss. This is a tactical and strategic 'what-if' but I doubt he could pull it off.

Also keep in mind the other side of the coin. Once the news that Richard Cameron was dead, the impetus for the House Lords to stake a claim was handed to them on a silver platter and Kerensky would have been a threat one way or another. Kerensky beleived in the ideals, not the reality, of the Star League, but the House Lords didn't. Either way, bad situation.

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Once more unto the breach.

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Depends on the interpretation. Certainly the House Books and the Star League manual seem to indicate that even at the end of the Amaris war, the SLDF remained uber-powerful, enough to make any House Lord wince with the possibility of being wiped out. The caveat to the discussion that being that while the House Lords might have attacked the Star League/Hegemony reborn under Kerensky would have thrown their own economies and indeed their states into civil war.

Indeed, even with the SLDF depleted, it still overmatched Kurita and made him flinch at their massing at New Samarkand. In addition, the populaces in four-fifths of the Successor States wanted the Star League to remain. The populations at the time were not yet the "Successor Sheep" that they are/were during the Succession Wars.

The House Lords might be powerful, but the sheer numbers of their populations pro-Star League, their own economies (still tied to the Star League to some extent even with the Amaris Crisis), and the infrastructure disruption alone would make an attack on the Kerensky/Hegemony, folly. I do wonder, that in light of the recent publications and actions of the Word of Blake, it would seem the factories on Terra were not so reduced as thought under the 3025 chronology. One wonders just how long it might have taken Kerensky to rebuild and rearm with his experienced tech force, given the fact WOB stockpiled large numbers in a very short time.

The cooperation of the House Lords attacking the Hegemony might bring it down in a straight up fight, but the revolts and rebellions in their own backyards by Loyalists would crush their own states from within.

If you add the obvious "divide and conquer" tactics Kerensky could use (i.e. "Yes, would Mr. Liao like to be First Lord with my support? Great! Attack Mr. Marik please.), and the situation becomes worse for the House Lords.

In the end though, Kerensky departed in probably one of the most unusual moves in a gaming chronology.

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[size=85]To indeed be a god. [/size]

Which I agree with your appoint. It really does depend on your interpretation. I am looking at things from the standpoint that the SLDF has fought a long bitter campaign, though with support from various league bases and the under-table from some of the House Lords, that this is an Army that has literally gotten the entire galaxy knocked into and out of them. Never underestimate the power of intelligence en masse. Room temperature divided by number of people is the average stadning. I am betting cynically, that if the House Lords wanted to trump something up, they could start with Periphery actions of the SLDF and working outward.

Let's say that they wanted to spin a tale that the Star League Army committed atrocities under the banner of Richard Cameron and that Amaris was acting in defense of his world and the like. Its unusual because I have not seen that done in any other game. Which meant that Kerensky was truly written to be that 'Noble Guy' everyone hears about but never gets to meet.

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Once more unto the breach.

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I have one thing to add. Why didn't the scuessor states go after comstar anyway as soon as the exodos took place? Now if you had all the remnants of the SLDF in hegemony space only. In addition to still total control of the HPG grid(pre comstar, yes but Dept of communications did have a monopoly).

I think attack of the Hegemony by the Houses becomes remote. As even with 50% casualties the SLDF is still powerful, and as Hegemony space is smaller, then there is a smaller front to defend and it would take a lot to dislodge a world, in the mean time each house would be attacking each other.

Technically the Hegemony could have been rebuilt and eventually have use the "bigger stick" approch with the HPG control to "negoiate" a new Star League.

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war is not violence and killing pure and simple; war is [i]controlled[/i] violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decision by force. -Sgt Zim

Guys, I doubt the SLDF could hold one with just the Terran solar system, as their only holdings and to keep touting the idea that Terra is the golden goose who can piss gold is getting old. For the SL and Terran Hegmongy to be what it was they had to have ALL of the planets that fell under their control not a single star system and just because TPTB have written themselves into a corner with Terra being the same pissing golden goose, doesn't mean we have to with this discussion.

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

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For that very reason. The Comm grids were already up and maintained by the Star League Dept. of Communications and the Successor States saw no reason to dismantle or change that applecart. The otherside of it was that if they did, the people that ran the HPG-grid new what buttons to push in order to shut down the grid permanently. Therefore leave it alone. (Boy did they hose that cat). It was remote even at the height of the power because the House Lords knew that the economic strings were own lock, stock, and barrel. Wouldn't have worked as the House Lords were still recognized as the ruling council of Lords before agreeing to disagree and establishing ComStar under Blake. Therefore we are talking a coup and they could excercise their own power to gobble the Hegemony.

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Once more unto the breach.

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I don't think TPTB have written themselves into a corner per se because the fact of the matter is: If we were to take to the stars within the next century, Earth will always be considered the birthplace of the Human Race (much as it is).

We're talking about the Star League sphere of influence, economics and power structure. You raised an excellent question Karagain, one that I think TPTB explored to some degree before handing us what has been established.

So I beg your indulgence for the moment: Terra, at the establishment of the Terran Hegemony, was out of touch with the many colony worlds prior to the formation of the Second Hegemony and later the Star League (Well Duh you say, whats your point Seawolf? You say).

My point is this: Terra is still home to the human civilization and not even the House Lords up till the Liberation wanted to see the cradle of the Human Race become a wasteland. After the fall of the Star League and the establishment of ComStar, Terra was taken care of and the House Lords could turn their attention upon each other arguing they were the First Lord of the Star League and generally having an excuse to shoot at ech other for perceived slights both real and imagined (especially if you're a Liao).

If one of the House Lords had openly supported the SLDF and Kerensky, then he'd have a literal key to the vault through Kerensky. All the military codes, passwords, access to SLDF tech. That is the other key issue here.

They portrayed Kerensky as a man of honour and ideals in the nobility of the Star Leagues' higher principles as opposed to the political realities. Attaching himself to one of the House Lords would have ended the Liberation earlier but bring on a new set of problems that Kerensky wasn't prepared for.

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Once more unto the breach.

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I agree Terra is special, but it's NOT the golden goose. It was one world/system among roughly 100 (give or take 20, I don't have the maps in front of me) that the Hegemongy controlled. It was the capital, but without the other worlds it was limited on what it could support. Which is my point and the point that seems to be forgotten. We know that the system and the world was hurt and hurt bad by the fighting to free it, yet 300 years later it's a prefect world that can fart and out comes more golden eggs without anything balancing them for the rest of the universe. That is my point and why I think that if Kerensky stayed without support from a house and fallen back to only the Sol System (aka Terra and her eight other worlds (give or take one or two)), then the houses would have crushed the rump of the SL and Terra would have again been a battlefield.

Look how quick the Houses went after the planets of the Hegemongy once the SLDF was on the move to leave...

Bottom line is that beyond being the birth place of mankind, Terra is a single world among millions and not the holy grail which is what TPTB have turned it into with the current story line.

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

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Okay going with the Davion support of the SLDF during the Liberation, which house would move first against the SLDF/FedSuns once the fighting was finished?

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]

House Kurita as a matter of Bushido, or House Laio as a matter of insanity.

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Once more unto the breach.

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The Amaris War was an internal matter -the other House Lords would have no business interfering.

Had Davion taken part, the Terran Hegemony would still have fallen apart like a sand castle under a rising tide -The Houses stepped into the Hegemony worlds because the Amaris War made them unable to survive on their own. The Exodus only made the situation worse as Kerensky stripped those systems of factories, scientists and transport assets.

My take is that Kerensky was out for Kerensky, no matter that the popular fiction portrays him as a saint -he was a soldier, not a political leader; A servant, not a ruler. He may have blamed the House Lords for a lot of problems but Kerensky could only blame himself for failing in his primary duty: Raising Richard Cameron. He let his buddy Stefan take over instead.

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[i]And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.[/i] from The Koran, 33rd Sura- The Clans

How can the Amaris War be an internal matter when the Houses where a part of the SL as well as the Terran Hegemony?

Shouldn't the matter have been one that called for full military action of all members of the SL?

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]

There has been a lot of interesting discussion here and unfortunately, when I asked my question it appears I kind of diverted the thread. I didn't mean to take this away from the proper topic. As I don't know what happened with the "official" history, I don't know what would have happened if the Davion Family had backed Kerensky.


Now, I agree that if the SLDF had backed down to the Terran system only, they would have lost whatever war was coming. Yet I still think if the SLDF had made a stand around half the worlds (or maybe all), especially if they controlled the the HPG network, they would have easily held on to part of the original Hegemony. If the other house lords are getting uppity, you just shut down all HPG traffic to their realms. The become a colleciton of fiefdoms and not a organized force. The SLDF still is an organized force that has good lines of communication and good technology. They can recover. Admittedly they may not be able to hold on to all of the worlds that were originally part of the Hegemony but I think if they are the only people with operating communications, they have a gigantic advantage because of the distances involved.

Now, if Kerensky was really out for Kerensky and not the noble person he is made out to be, that is a toatlly different story and it makes far more sense on why he left with the SLDF military. Especially if that is the case, the Clans are a perfect ending to the that mess and I'm surprised there hasn't been more attacks since there wouldn't be any reason for the Crusaders at least to abide by the treaty.

If memory serves me correctly. Lord Minoru Kurita(?) had family members held at gunpoint on Terra, and I believe they were ultimately killed way before Kerensky got landfall on Terra.. So I disagree with your assesment that this was an internal matter. Agreed. However he and the others in the chain of command did not know Richard Caemeron (and most of the family) were dead until AFTER the SLDF had liberated Terra.

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Once more unto the breach.

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Remember... Amaris had the House Lords under control by virtue of threatening to kill blood relatives planetside. So he could easily dangle a favored relative by gunpoint in the face of a Lord and tell him to know his/her role and shut up.

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Once more unto the breach.

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No worries bro... You'res made for an interesting aside. While this is an interesting point, mayhaps I point out that if the SLDF backed to within 30 light years of Terra and gained controll of the HPG grid that all they would have really done is bought themselves time only to end up in a quandry shortly thereafter. Abandoning HPG stations would allow the House Lords to move in, study the tech and then refit/reproduce them to their own devices therefore killing the SLDF monopoly on the grid. You're forgetting that the Clans were a product of Nicholas Kerensky's doing and not Alexander. Son was not like father in this case.

had Kerensky sided with any of the House Lords post Liberation that would send a signal to the regulars that the SL was dead and that their commanding officer was throwing away an oath that he, like the army, had sworn to. Accepting allegiance, or giving it, to a House Lord instead of the Star League First Lord would have killed him poitlically and socially within the military ranks. He was pretty much pidgeon holed into a catch-22 situation.

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Once more unto the breach.

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img]

I can see that working for awhile, but sooner or later the whole thing fails for Amaris. If a House Lord doesn't back down then he, Amaris, has no choice but to kill the hostage, because a threat is only going to work if you actually carry out it. So once he kills the hostage(s) he has nothing left and then he has another enemy coming to gunning for him.

Also while the hostages are family memebers, the House rulers and leadership are all professionals who know that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, and the few in the case are the hostage.

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]

The presence of RWR troops in the TH was by invitation -They freed up SLDF forces for their oppression of the Periphery. In that case, by treaty, the RWR forces were the same as home defense troops.

Amaris was not an invader -he led a coup d'etat. In essence, the Amaris War was a Civil War -an internal affair between Richard Cameron and the mercenaries he agreed with to guard his realm. History claims that Amaris had planned the coup from the start while one could also believe that the temptation of a state left unguarded was too much to resist.

Richard Cameron opened his door to Amaris and his troops, Kerensky noticed nothing as he pulled more and more SLDF forces away from home.

Had Amaris crossed borders as an invader, I could see the Houses responding in kind, as per treaty. Instead, the coup was over in a matter of hours -All the Houses could really do was decide if they should recognize Amaris as the TH's new leader or not. To attack would make the Houses the invaders. Amaris may not have been the legitimate ruler of the TH but he was the de facto possessor of the state and the only government in the TH.

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[i]And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.[/i] from The Koran, 33rd Sura- The Clans

One of the things that has always bugged me about the fall of the Star League is why didn't the Terran Hegemony (TH) reform. There is no reason that I can find for the TH to not have elected a new legislature and picked a new Director General of the TH. They could have picked Kerensky and that would have made him an equal to the other house lords. It is interesting to note that reforming the TH and appointing a Director General would not have automatically made him the first lord.

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This is the best terrain I have seen all day!

Well, officially the Terran Hegemony never UNformed, but your point about the Hegemony just declaring him their leader does hold a LOT of water. Then have the Hegemony declare a humanitarian crisis and order all Hegemony forces to stay in the Hegemony for the duration of the crisis. And make an official request to the Star League Council (and over the HPG public channels) for aid from other organizations.

Then if the House Lords tried to hire Star League regiments, it could be spun as "stealing relief troops from the disaster area" which would put the Hours Lords in a REALLY bad light. Hrmm.

You know. I never thought about that. But it really does make a lot of sense and could have EASILY saved the Hegemony by forcing the House Lords to help rather than conquer. Very intersting idea indeed.

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Now he's going to be unbearable . . .

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[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

what?

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Thanks Goose,

I agree, when I am right and someone else agrees I do become unbearable

However, now I am thinking about a new campaign set during the 1st Succession War with the players acting as the TH Army trying to fend off the houses without starting a war with all of them. Consider that!

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This is the best terrain I have seen all day!

I'd better put a stop to this!

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[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

Oooh!

Sounds fun!

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?