Welcome to the HeavyMetalPro Forums

I was got the Sword and Dragon scenario pack, and one thing struck me as I was reading the personnel dossiers - how does one get to own a mech? And what's so great about being a House mechwarrior and owning a mech that can suck up your estate's income in one single repair if you're already some so-and-so noble? The pay sucks, and you may get killed, prestige or not... Remember the Atlas pilot in TRO: 3025 who was said to earn and lose land grants in battle?

And there're the enlisted mechwarriors who could muster out with their mechs, and do so legally. How does it work? An ordinary mechwarrior earning 2500 C-Bills per month can never earn enough to purchase a 3 million C-Bill light mech even if he serves his whole life.

So I got around to thinking about this issue. My in-universe solution here is what I call a 'credit pool', which is how Houses reward those who fight for them, separate from their basic pay, combat bonuses, and such.

This 'credit pool' exists for all mechwarriors, separate from their monthly wages. From the credit pool, the mechwarrior can obtain land grants or titles for himself or his family, extra replacement parts, upgrades, or even his own battlemech. Of course, he has to earn most of the credits on the battlefield...

Earning Credits
Certain number of points per year/month of service (may vary by rank and posting)
Successful participation in missions
Battlefield valor (killing enemy units and such)

Using Credits
Purchasing a mech
Earning titles/land grants
Obtain parts/upgrades

What do you guys think?

TWG

_________________
The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable.

I think that if MechWarrior himself needs to buy spares for his 'Mech, then he practically owns it. Otherwise unit or house owns 'Mech and maintains it. That easy, that simple.

I don't have Starterbook at hand right now, but what I recall from it, some noble bought new 'Mech straight from factory and maintains it by account of his family. It keeps 'Mech in better shape than average 'Mech owned by unit and it draws less unit's resources. If MechWarrior decides to leave the unit, he can take his 'Mech with him. And he does it, becouse he can afford it. Poorer MechWarrior (in same book) bought hulk of destroyed 'Mech and repaired it.

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Yes, and I think they still have to have a member of the family as a mechwarrior(Kurita, I think) for reasons like gaining favor with the ruling family and getting more land for their family. Otherwise, there's no gain for them to sink their family fortunes into a mechwarrior and his mech when the return pay is so poor.
If it's a commoner-born mechwarrior, how is he going to pay for the parts? That's something never quite explained in any of the canon material.

TWG

_________________
The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable.

There's an anime series from the 80's called Area 88 that has similar issues in it. And has creative solutions.

You muster into the unit for 3 years. you get a jet. Whatever they have handy. You serve for your term of enlistment, or until you pay $1.5-3 million (number changed from the manga, the SNES game, and the two Anime series) to discharge yourself. You get to keep the jet in either case.

You get tens of thousands of dollars for each piece of enemy equipment destroyed, based on it's perceived value to the enemy. This is your money to keep. You use it to buy whores and booze, upgrades and parts for your jet, or to cash out so you don't have to serve the whole 3 years.

All in all it's how I envision service as a house mechwarrior to be, complete with the alcoholism, the nihilism, and the cynical desperation of the grunts.

_________________
Big Nick, the Chainsaw Assassin
[i]Making Bad News Worse since 1980[/i]
[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]

As I recall an old marching song my dad mentioned a few times...

"You're in the Army now,
you're not behind a plow.
You'll never get rich,
you sonofabitch,
you're in the Army now."

A House MechWarrior probably isn't going to hit it rich from his lordly House salary or even battlefield salvage. The money is from earning estates and new lands due to honorable service to his House.

And to do that...
I think you're onto something, though I also think you're reinventing the wheel,. Don't MW3 PCs earn character points that can be used to acquire new advantages, like expanded estates?

It might be worthwhile to streamline the system, though, for less RPG-oriented PCs.

_________________
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

Not really: Seems to me you had to justify converting experience points into new advantages after character creation; During character creation, it just sort'a happened, like for all the other unexplained rich MechWarriors in the universe . . .

Anyway: There doesn't seem to be any IC explanation for how one gets a 'Mech in the family, other then "it's your turn to be the breadwinner for household".

Makes you wonder about all them 'Mercs . . .

_________________
[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

In my own 3025 games, it works like this...

The warriors who own their own Mechs, including the family Mechs often mentioned in the canon, work for the state under a mutually supporting contract. The owner-warriors have the skills and the Mechs, and the state needs them for its military. So the state gives the owner-warriors a contract for pay and benefits which includes maintenance of the family Mechs, possible upgrades from salvage, maybe a land grant or minor title or other rewards, in return for service. This can develop into either a "Company Store" situation, or a family tradition of service to a particular state as time and rewards accumulate. The latter is the source of the "Mechwarriors as nobility" myth. Owner-warriors can also go merc, as David Grey did to create the Shadows. After all, it's their Mech, they'll do with it as they please...

The Dispossessed warriors work basically the same way. They have the skills, but lack a Mech. So they are given a pay and benefits package to fight for the state, and drive a state-owned Mech. These warriors can earn keep of their assigned Mech in a variety of ways...

- Reward for valor. Most warriors would agree that a Mech is a lot more useful than a medal...
- Salvaging an enemy Mech. You can either give back the Mech you got from the state, or let the state take the salvaged Mech. Either way, you get a Mech and the state gets a Mech to replace its loss.
- Reward for extending service. "Re-up for another tour and you can keep the Mech when you get out." Popular for keeping skilled warriors over for the next big campaign, and turning them into owner-warriors loyal to the state.
- Grand Theft Mecha. You simply run off with the state's Mech. This is how a lot of mercs and pirates get started, but this method has other consequences, like being marked as a thief and deserter...
- Buying the Mech outright, or some kind of Rent to Own policy. Not a popular option, since warriors in this situation tend not to be rich enough to buy a Mech.

In any case, when the Dispossessed warrior gets his own Mech, he then becomes an owner-warrior, and subject to the same situations and choices as in the first paragraph.

Hope all that helps.

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Wouldn't that make then a lot of them Mercs?

_________________
Doc
"An artist is never appreciated until he's dead."

Justification is easy.

Player, OOC: "Hey, after all those battles, I've got 57 character points. I want to be a baron. I'm buying the land grant advantage."

GM, OOC: "Okay, give me a second to sketch out the scene..."

GM, IC: "For your valor and stalwart service to the State in some 11 past battles, I hearby grant you this baronial estate on Waythehelloutthere, to be inherited by your heirs in perpetuity, now kneel so that I might smack your shoulders with this sword because that's how we make you a baron around here...And when we're done, have your people contact my people, and they'll sort out of the legal details of the asset transfer."
It's only unexplained if you don't fill in the PC's backstory.
There are plenty more reasons, as wide and varied as any canon NPC has a family 'Mech. You can use those reasons for your PCs, too.

_________________
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

Could we get some RPG thing going around here, in the forums?

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Yes and no.

Most people think of "mercs" in the Battletech sense in terms of the mercs being their own unit, employed by the state as a distinct and separate formation from the state army, employed under terms that differ from regular soldiers. In that respect, the owner-warriors may be mercs if they choose to go that route.

What I'm talking about with the owner-warriors is a regular military enlistment, with perks for joining up. The owner-warrior signs an enlistment contract as all soldiers do, and is assigned to a regular military unit like any other soldier. It's just the terms of his contract (support for his Mech, etc.) that are different (by necessity) from the average grunt on the ground.

The Dispossessed or "state Mechwarriors" also get regular military enlistments, but with fewer perks since they don't own a Mech and therefore are more reliant on the state. They still get a few perks (i.e. chance to get their own Mech) by virtue of being Mechwarriors (highly valued skill that the state military wants to keep).

The whole idea, from the state's view, is to get Mechwarriors (with or without Mechs) to enlist in the state armies and stay there...

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Hense the propensity to "company store" as many merc units as possible.

_________________
Big Nick, the Chainsaw Assassin
[i]Making Bad News Worse since 1980[/i]
[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]

But, no: How did that state of affairs come about? When did the state (any state) start to let Great Big Honkin' War Machines become privet property in the first place? What where they thinking?

And how do I move there? I'm stuck with "Warrantless Street Survalance" as it is . . .

_________________
[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

Ask anyone owning an old pt boat, a p51 mustang, f86 saber, uh1 huey, all maner of soviet war equipment, vietnam pbr's... the list goes on and on.

A buddy of mine takes his m3 stewart tank to the weeken carshow.

The only reason I can't own a harrier or f14 right now is an issue of cost. The reason I can't arm the thing is local laws about military weaponry, something the sucessor states doesn't have.

Hell if i started a "private Military Contractor" company like blackwelder I could buy .50 beltfeds, 3.75 rockets and the like. Probably smart munitions too, but since that isn't cost-effective (yet) you don't see them using them.

_________________
Big Nick, the Chainsaw Assassin
[i]Making Bad News Worse since 1980[/i]
[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]

I kinda mentioned this in the "What If" thread.

Human space is BIG. Trillions of people on thousands of worlds scattered over thousands of light years. The distances and limits of KF and HPG tech limit the level of state control that can be exerted over individual worlds. If a world goes into rebellion, gets invaded, suffers a major disaster or whatever, it can take weeks to months for a state response to arrive. If there is a state to respond at all. There have been long periods in CBT history where many (most) worlds had no real state authority over them, and many still don't. And as we have seen in too many places in the real world, when things go to hell and authority collapses, wealth gets redistributed (looting) and lots of military hardware ends up in private hands. Like Mechs in the hands of the Mechwarriors who drove them...

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

In case of Terran Hegemony after fall of the Star League, there wasn't that much of thinking

So how mercs of today get those things armed? Do they get allowance to do so along with contract?

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

If you own a Mech, the local authorities on most worlds aren't in a very good position to argue with you about its guns.

That said, I would imagine that owning a Mech comes with licenses and all the legal whatnot about its guns, along with all the stuff that goes with any big hunk of heavy machinery. That is probably easier than it might seem at first, since people generally don't go walking around in Mechs without a good reason, and most owner-warriors are usually in cahoots with the local militia or whatever brand of authority exists. "You can own a Mech, as long as we can call you for backup when pirates show up..." This can lead to some amusing situations, like the Periphery owner-warrior who drives his Stinger for the local militia when needed, and uses it for heavy lifting in his construction business when things are quiet...

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Six Special Words:

"Legal resident of Republic of Liburnia."



Insert any name of any Banana Republic that wants the money they are willing to pay to be "legal" into said sentence.

Also, in America it is actually pretty easy to get lots of heavy weapons. Of course, it is easier for corporations to get "permits" to do it, especially if they have reasons to do it. "Outside country consultation on security issues in hot spots requiring an aggressive defensive posture."

"Ah...so you shoot bad guys."

"Yup."

"Please sign here. Promise not to use it inside America. We after all are the good guys."

"Yup."

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Yep, that works too. Re-flagging and all that sort of thing.

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

It's called a breakdown in government. The rise of feudalism occurred long after the fall of Rome. You had centuries of chaos called the Dark Ages, where barbarism ruled and eventually the more organized barbarians emerged as kingdoms.

Chiefs were the guys who could organize warbands. Eventually these chiefs became kings over lesser chiefs. Warband members became knights as they provided their own mounts, armor and weapons.

In the end, if you look at the chaos first, a few guys emerge from the various wars with their own mounts to become knights. The tradition of prominant families providing small military forces would be the next step.

Once you reach the stage where your nation's producing enough mechs for the regular forces, private ownership is no longer practical and usually undesirable.

_________________
[i]And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.[/i] from The Koran, 33rd Sura- The Clans

I have book now, and I'll type exact quotes about two 'Mechs from pages 24 and 25 (skipping unrelevant details)

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

After, or as the Star League imploded, many of the wealthier families already owned mechs as security, or bought them off others. Even the House Lords might sell mechs to wealthy loyals, at a reduced rate.

Think of it this way. The LC has a Assassin sitting around. It is still a decent mech in the 29th century, but parts are hard to get, and usually come as salvage. The LC decides to sell, or gift the old Assassin to a loyal family on a border world. They can sell the mech at close to full price and the LC can buy a new mech that is easier to maintain, sell it for less then it's full value, but put the family buying it into a feudal arrangement (must serve in the LCAF, or militia) while putting the cash toward new equipment, or gift it to the family outright. Even as a gift the meh will continue to benefit the state since the LC is no longer paying up keep, but can still call on the mech. The LCAF gets the latest toys, and good use out of the old ones.

Even better is to do this with captured mechs. Take the LC again, but sell off those captured Dragons, or Panthers that are hard to equip, and maintain.

You are also going to have ancient mechs floating around as well. The family that had a SLDF member in it way back and kept it as an example. The mechwarrior claiming salvage etc.

In the more modern period you have old mechs being sold off to raise upgrade capital. Again, sell that old Dervish to a family that lives on the border who will use it to defend is a benefit to the state.

Most of this was already covered. I just never took the pay listed as the way to buy a mech. I always assumed that basic maintenance was covered when possible by the regular unit when it comes to privately held mechs. In the 3050s the owners of the private mech could by his own upgrades, go into the company store to get them, or sell his old mech to the state, and get it back to run with the upgrades, but not the title. With the huge technology gap in the 3050s this became more common and you went back to more state owned machines. In the Jihad the antiques came out of the barn, and what you could pick up salvage was yours. There wasn't a government entity to say no put that back.

Can well be assumed: "I'll lend you services with my 'Mech as long as you can keep it going". Something like that is even said in some novels... or at least in A call to arms (Tassa Kay and her modded Ryoken II)

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

The problem is that you have blown the fifth left leg actuator on your family owned Assassin this year and there are no more in the supply pipeline.

so you go into battle at -1 movement and a piloting penalty. The LC doesn't care. you're one more warm body.

Nobody ever said you're going into battle with a full mag and a fully repaired machine.

_________________
Big Nick, the Chainsaw Assassin
[i]Making Bad News Worse since 1980[/i]
[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]

I totally agree. You may buy a gray market actuator, or trade with a merc or whatever, but tPtB could care less.

If I recall correctly, Concrete Dragons got actuator for salvaged Dervish by letting engineers inspect actuator of other leg and then they made actuator for the other in local factory. Steel parts are relative easy to be copied and made compared to microprocessors and ASIC circuits.

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

It was a Valkyrie with a blown hip, but yes. The Concrete Dragons popped the hip joint out of the good leg, took it to the local foundry, and had a matching part made using scrap from the Hatchetman that was wrecked in the same fight. Any machine shop tech worth his paycheck should be able to take measurements and mirror an example part; I see it done all the time in the Navy. "OK, we need one of these, but we need it in one piece instead of two..."

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Now see, there's your problem. That's a feature... It lets it... uh, break down for easy storage.

//benchtech's answers for why it ain't broken

_________________
Big Nick, the Chainsaw Assassin
[i]Making Bad News Worse since 1980[/i]
[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]