Welcome to the HeavyMetalPro Forums

It is currently Tue May 14, 2024 4:41 pm

All times are UTC-04:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Who is to blame?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:20 am 
Offline
Loki
Loki

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 11444
Location: Minnesnowta
So...if the Word of Blake was looking to support the Star League in an invasion of the Clans...interesting...do onto others as they have done onto us...in spades. :devil2:

So...IF that is the case and it SEEMS to be...who is to blame for starting the Jihad?

Would it be Sun Tzu and the Canopians for not even bothering to come to the final conference and (in absentia) stating their non confidence of it?

Would it be the Steiner-Davion line for calling for the dissolution of the Star League?

Is the WOB for being whiny little babies?

Or, drawing on information from InterStellar Players, is it the Illuminati? ;) Think about it will you? I mean, would they REALLY want the Clans destroyed? It is the Clans and their threat to the Inner Sphere that kept the New Star League alive, but maybe the New Star League didn't have the hands on power that they wanted, so they chose to end it, hoping to preempt the WOB's move to hit the Clans. Then, during the Jihad, they supply a new leader to stand up tall and build a new, more powerful, better, central government akin to the old Terran Hegemony.

Yes, maybe the Stoners are Illuminati plants to rule the Inner Sphere. :)

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible :blah:
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?


Last edited by Medron Pryde on Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:44 am 
Offline
Test Pilot
Test Pilot

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 12373
Location: That flattop, up the well, overhead …
Somewhere between the Wobblies and the Steiner-Davions: Them Wobblies just ain't trustworthy or stable, but the leadership of the FedRats and the Lyin' Commonwealth just had the most amazing case of Teh Stupids that day, turning down reconstruction aid 'n whatnot . . .

Laio? Y'all should be expecting crap like that from them; And if you're not tough enough to take it . . . :angry:

_________________
[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:17 am 
Offline
The Walkin' Dude
The Walkin' Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:20 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: End-World
I like the Illuminati idea, Medron. But I suppose it's one of those Ben-Kenobi-"point-of-view" things. From the Blakist perspective, it's the fault of the Houses who bailed on the Star League. From the perspective of pretty much everyone else, it's the fault of the Blakists who started it in the first place (or if you want to get more specific, it's the fault of The Real Thomas Marik). OOC, I think the answer lies somewhere in between. IC, as a Blakist, it's the corrupt Houses and their desire for more power that ended the Star League, just like the first one.

_________________
"I have vanquished you, lizard slavers. And now, behold the pelvic gyrations of my victory boogie."
- Space Ghost


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:52 am 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
I have a hard time believing that Sun-Tzu Laio would spend so much time playing up being the first First Lord, and then turn around and say it was nothing but a waste of time.

I also have a hard time with the FedCom nations turning down all the aid they could have gotten by staying in the Star League. That, too, simply doesn't make sense.

But the blame still lies entirely with the Wobblies. Okay, so they couldn't take on the Clans this week. They couldn't wait? It had to be now? And instead, doing pretty much the same thing the Clans did, accomplishes what?

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:20 am 
Offline
General Nuisance
General Nuisance

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 3448
Location: In da Fridge stealing URBeer!
Why not he got everything he wanted from the Star League. I really haven't see much in the line of loyalty from Sun Tzu and the Star League was a means to an end for him.

_________________
[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l52 ... 0a8555.jpg[/img]
[url]http://www.murphyslawgaming.com[/url]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:55 am 
Offline
Wobblie Scum
Wobblie Scum

Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 1731
Location: Temple of Toaster Worship
I don't think the Wobblies, or at least some of them, were out to get the clans for the sake of the Star League. There has been examples, from Fritz Donner's letter to Mike Cirion in FM: Updates, and their actions in the Chaos March which contradicts this. Why expend so much energy and elite forces(Manei Domini elimination of other groups) in the Chaos March to set up the Protectorate if their target from the start was the clans? Wouldn't the MD be better utilized killing clanners in their beds in the OZ?

I think the Word of Blake in 3067 just before the jihad was split into three factions/levels of secrecy. The lowest level were the majority, told that they were going to wipe the clans out once and for all. When the Star League went *poof*, they were manipulated by the 2nd level of secrecy folks into getting mad at the Houses and sparking off the jihad.

The 2nd level of secrecy folks were guys like Apollyon, St. Jamais, etc. They think they know what's going on, and even if they don't, they trust the Master. They were in on the jihad from the very start, and were just waiting for something, anything, to use as a pretext to unleash the firestorm. Probably they already had some inkling that the Star League was about to be dissolved, which was why they carried out a pre-emptive attack on Outreach, and even that one was accomplished by bought-over mercs. After the conference on Tharkad, they spun the stories to the rank-and-file, the Dragoons hit Sol, and bam, they had all the pretext they needed.

The last level of secrecy was the Master and his shadow cabal, who could very well consist of Illuminati. Either way, they win, but it was also far more probable they had calculated that their forces would be unable to overcome so many Houses arrayed against them. So it was simple for them to program some unwitting dupe(Devlin Stone), and bring about the 2nd coming of the Terran Hegemony, which could be what they wanted all along, because somebody probably made the connection that a stable Star League needed a sixth state in the middle, occupying Terra. Everything proceeded as planned, with no hiccups at all!

As for Age of Destruction? I suspect the Illuminati shut down the HPGs to accelerate the timeline for the restoration of the Star League to unite humanity...

TWG

_________________
The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:44 am 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
Why not he got everything he wanted from the Star League. I really haven't see much in the line of loyalty from Sun Tzu and the Star League was a means to an end for him.
It's not about loyalty. I'm talking about the way Sunny played up the "look at me, I'm the first First Lord!" angle at home, as part of Xin Sheng. I don't see how he could justify saying "I'm so cool because I'm the head of the Star League" for a few years, and then flip around and say "Bah, the Star League is nothing". What are the people of the CapCon supposed to think with this flip-flopping? If it's a source of national pride, wouldn't it be demoralizing to be told it was a joke?

Not only that, but I'd think that Sunny would want to stay in the game, anyway, because that gives him more political opportunities. I'm no fan of him or his nation, but Sunny is one of the best political operators the setting has ever seen, thinks I. For him to demoralize his nation and chuck away great potential for more gain just doesn't compute.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:48 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 370
Location: Kansas
Real world history is full of leaders that sold their nation a bill of goods and then flip-flopped. Seldom was it to anyones advantage but their own.
In the novel's, Sunny was never all that concerned about the clans. As far back as his 'training' on Outreach he could really care less. The clans were not going to ever get to his nation, and were giving his mortal enemies a pretty good beatdown at the time.
Assuming the title of First Lord allowed him to tap into all the technological advances of the other houses, and the pet clanners that joined the SLDF. He was also able to use SLDF forces to suit his won needs in the chaos march.
Once he had everything he needed from the SLDF, why pretend any longer that he gave a crap about beating the clans. Since that was the main purpose of the new SLDF, he could take his marbles and go home.
With his military sporting shiney new omni-mechs and other upgraded equipment, why would he worry about what the common citizen thinks. He has the muscle to stay in power, and that is all he has ever been concerned about.

_________________
Proud member of that peculiar sub-species of humanity know as U.S. Marines.
[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:22 am 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Why worry about what the common citizen thinks? Well, if it was important during the Xin Sheng, why is it suddenly unimportant?

Further, what does Sunny lose from continuing to be part of the Star League? There's much more potential for gain by remaining a part of it.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:40 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 370
Location: Kansas
Like what? Having to contribute his own troops to campaigns that he does not care about. Or possibly having to abide by restrictions on his own powers at home to adhere to 'Star league' ideals of truth, justice and the SLDF way?? :D
I see the Xin Sheng as being the 31st century, fictional version of the rise of Nazism in the 1930's. Give the little people a sense of national pride, raise the standard of living a bit and they will follow you anywhere. Hitler did the same thing with the German people. He made the rebuilding of a former great nation into a source of pride in their culture and technological resurgance. He signed numerous treaties with other countries to gain materials and technology and then turned on them just a few years later. Sounds kinda familiar.

_________________
Proud member of that peculiar sub-species of humanity know as U.S. Marines.
[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:56 am 
Offline
General Nuisance
General Nuisance

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 3448
Location: In da Fridge stealing URBeer!
Quote:
Why worry about what the common citizen thinks? Well, if it was important during the Xin Sheng, why is it suddenly unimportant?

Further, what does Sunny lose from continuing to be part of the Star League? There's much more potential for gain by remaining a part of it.
It was important during Xeng Sheng because he was the first lord! WIth him as forst lord the Star league did what Sunny wanted (good thing. Cool to be the head of the SL) now that the Star League is under the command of others the Star League is evil! Proof? Teddy and Vic doing everything possible to hamper Xeng Sheng! Since the SL was no longer catering to the CapCom ideals it was no longer needed. The Common citizen saw what Sunny said as being true, He played it to the masses not the other way around. :wink:

_________________
[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l52 ... 0a8555.jpg[/img]
[url]http://www.murphyslawgaming.com[/url]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:11 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
He signed numerous treaties with other countries to gain materials and technology and then turned on them just a few years later. Sounds kinda familiar.
Turning on them and conquering them is not the same as saying "the hell with you guys, I want nothing to do with you".

Besides, I still fail to see how he would benefit by going back to being the odd man out.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:12 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
Quote:
Why worry about what the common citizen thinks? Well, if it was important during the Xin Sheng, why is it suddenly unimportant?

Further, what does Sunny lose from continuing to be part of the Star League? There's much more potential for gain by remaining a part of it.
It was important during Xeng Sheng because he was the first lord! WIth him as forst lord the Star league did what Sunny wanted (good thing. Cool to be the head of the SL) now that the Star League is under the command of others the Star League is evil! Proof? Teddy and Vic doing everything possible to hamper Xeng Sheng! Since the SL was no longer catering to the CapCom ideals it was no longer needed. The Common citizen saw what Sunny said as being true, He played it to the masses not the other way around. :wink:
So now that there's a little opposition, there's nothing to do other than hang the whole thing up? Nope, I don't see that.

Besides, if they were hindering him, why couldn't he -- someone who is quite adept at political games -- do the same thing to them? It's easier to do that as part of the same group than it is to do it from without...

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:20 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 370
Location: Kansas
Ok, you tell me what does he gain by staying? He has built up his small miltary to the technological equal of all the other states. In some cases, maybe better. Now he has cozy agreements with the periphery powers to his 'rear' and a nice WOB administered buffer zone in the CM that is giving the other houses fits. What does the Capcon, which has always been somewhat isolationist gain by staying under the umbrella of the SL? They got everything they needed and were going to be dragged into fights that they didn't see a need to be involved in.

_________________
Proud member of that peculiar sub-species of humanity know as U.S. Marines.
[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:22 pm 
Offline
Sergeant
Sergeant

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:57 am
Posts: 57
I think blame needs to be placed on the Capellans, the Lyrans, the Davions and the Blakists. Obviously from what we've learned the Jihad wouldn't have happened with the destruction of the Star League (atleast not in this form). We've seen internal monologues from high level Manei Dominis saying "I should be fighting the Clans right now."
Quote:
I don't think the Wobblies, or at least some of them, were out to get the clans for the sake of the Star League. There has been examples, from Fritz Donner's letter to Mike Cirion in FM: Updates, and their actions in the Chaos March which contradicts this. Why expend so much energy and elite forces(Manei Domini elimination of other groups) in the Chaos March to set up the Protectorate if their target from the start was the clans? Wouldn't the MD be better utilized killing clanners in their beds in the OZ?
The WoB's actions in the Chaos March have been made out to much more sinister than they actually were. They limited their actions to planets that had been abandoned by the various Houses. Their special forces, especially the Manei Domini, were only used against terrorist groups in the Chaos March which were preying on the people of the Chaos March planets (ZdG). Atleast until the Dragoons decided "Well, we can't have the Word bringing laws and alliances to the Chaos March, we must stop them!" I mean, lets face it, if anyone else was using their Special Forces to kill off terrorist groups on planets, everyone would be ecstatic. Since its the WoB, its suddenly "bad." Why shouldn't the WoB expand its borders? After all, they're looking to become part of the Star League, perhaps take the place of the Terran Hegemony, and gee, look at that, there are all those planets sitting around that aren't affiliated, and are looking to join up with someone other than the factions that have been fighting over them for 300 years, then when things got bad, abandoned them.

Not utilizing the Manei Domini to kill Clanners prior to joining the Star League makes sense. Why spoil the surprise? After joining, the Manei Domini were going to be a complete shock to the Clanners. Something they had never seen before. Units that fought as well as the Clans, were as fanatical as the Clans, and in some regards, had advanced technology over the Clans. Why give it all away by hitting the clans with tiny pinpricks, that could have enticed the Clans to come boiling over into the Inner Sphere before the WoB or the Inner Sphere were ready?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:34 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
Ok, you tell me what does he gain by staying? He has built up his small miltary to the technological equal of all the other states. In some cases, maybe better. Now he has cozy agreements with the periphery powers to his 'rear' and a nice WOB administered buffer zone in the CM that is giving the other houses fits. What does the Capcon, which has always been somewhat isolationist gain by staying under the umbrella of the SL? They got everything they needed and were going to be dragged into fights that they didn't see a need to be involved in.
What does he gain by staying? The same stuff he already had gained, by being in it for 6 years. Technological equal? Great -- and that will last how long when going isolationist? And how many fights will he get dragged into when he's part of a larger nation (just who would these fights be against, anyway?), as opposed to how many he can get forced into when he's no longer on the same team as everyone else?

There's also the trade angle -- he would get better deals as a member nation, I would think, than as a lone nation.

And again, the political angle. If he's not part of the same group calling the shots, then how does he influence them to do what he wants?

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:38 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
I think blame needs to be placed on the Capellans, the Lyrans, the Davions and the Blakists. Obviously from what we've learned the Jihad wouldn't have happened with the destruction of the Star League (atleast not in this form). We've seen internal monologues from high level Manei Dominis saying "I should be fighting the Clans right now."
I still fail to see why it's anyone's fault other than the Wobblies. The Jihad is not at all a logical response to the dissolution of the Star League. "Oh, you won't let us come to your party? Fine, rather than give you all this beer and bean dip, we'll burn your house down. That'll show you!"

Really, how does the Jihad accomplish hurting the Clans?

And if it was all about fighting the Clans, anyway, then why not do the Jihad against them? If the Wobblies were so good that they built secret armies without being noticed and put these armies in position, then why couldn't they have gotten the location of the Clan home worlds and done it there?

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:43 pm 
Offline
Sergeant
Sergeant

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:57 am
Posts: 57
One thing that amused me, and I'm surprised it didn't occur to anyone really...

One of the very first actions of the first Star League was to go to war for decades to bring the Periphery nations into the Star League, whether they wanted it or not.

It might not be the Second Star League's first action, but I could've easily have seen the Star League deciding that the Capellans needed to be part of the Star League, whether they wanted to or not. The Reunification Wars, Part II.

Of course, the Steiners and the Kuritans might have objected due to having the Clans on their borders, but pretty much every faction could've looked at it and gone "Yeah, we could get behind kicking around the Cappies."


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:57 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
One thing that amused me, and I'm surprised it didn't occur to anyone really...

One of the very first actions of the first Star League was to go to war for decades to bring the Periphery nations into the Star League, whether they wanted it or not.

It might not be the Second Star League's first action, but I could've easily have seen the Star League deciding that the Capellans needed to be part of the Star League, whether they wanted to or not. The Reunification Wars, Part II.

Of course, the Steiners and the Kuritans might have objected due to having the Clans on their borders, but pretty much every faction could've looked at it and gone "Yeah, we could get behind kicking around the Cappies."
...And this would be further incentive to remain part of the SL. :)

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:01 pm 
Offline
Sergeant
Sergeant

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:57 am
Posts: 57
Quote:
I still fail to see why it's anyone's fault other than the Wobblies. The Jihad is not at all a logical response to the dissolution of the Star League. "Oh, you won't let us come to your party? Fine, rather than give you all this beer and bean dip, we'll burn your house down. That'll show you!"
Because destroying the Star League is a bad thing. Contributory negligence if you want :)

Quote:
Really, how does the Jihad accomplish hurting the Clans?

And if it was all about fighting the Clans, anyway, then why not do the Jihad against them? If the Wobblies were so good that they built secret armies without being noticed and put these armies in position, then why couldn't they have gotten the location of the Clan home worlds and done it there?
It doesn't hurt them at all (except for the strikes against the Clans obviously). But the Jihad has never been about hurting the Clans, but punishing the Inner Sphere (and to get in some shots at the Clans).

The original game plan was about hurting the Clans. Once the Star League fell, and St. Jamais possibly overreacted at Tharkad, that plan fell through, and Plan B came about. And that new plan is "Punish the corrupt Houses." After all, they destroyed the Star League, the only thing that managed to drive a single Clan out of the Inner Sphere (other than another Clan).

The WoB probably has the location of the Clan homeworlds, but I doubt they can do it by themselves. All in all, the WoB army, including the Manei Domini is probably about 1/3 of the standing "named" army of a successor state, not including things like planetary garrisons, extra unnamed infantry regiments, etc. 1/3. Last time to deal with one Clan it took 8 factions to do it, and that was with a Clan joining the Star League, and every other Clan staying out of it because of politicking. They can't expect it to happen a second time. Additionally, with the lack of a Star League, the WoB must now devote even more troops to garrisoning their holdings, because the Inner Sphere has just proven that they definitely can't be trusted.

Another problem with the WoB doing it by themselves is...what are they supposed to do with the conquered territory? If the WoB were to, say, shatter the Falcons. A combination of Blitzkrieg style attacks by Manei Domini and other WoB troops, with orbital fire support and Clan Warships taken out by nukes manages to drive the Falcons out of the Inner Sphere. The WoB at this point has more than a little bit of a legitimate claim saying "We conquered it, we get the planets." Do you really think the Lyrans will let the planets stay in WoB hands? Can the WoB really ask their soldiers to give up the planets they just fought for to a faction that couldn't be bothered? Heck, the WoB can't really effectively garrison them and go after the other clans, so if they do pause, then they have to reintegrate those. And they have to deal with the Lyrans demanding their worlds back. It isn't that easy to just claim "Oh, well, go destroy the clans on your own."

I'm actually guessing that from the limited responses we saw early on in the Jihad, more than a few of the troops were heading to the Clan Homeworlds when the Star League was dissolved, or were out of the Inner Sphere atleast.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:21 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Yeah, but the Wobblies then took on pretty much the entire Inner Sphere... If they had forces to do that, they surely could have taken on at least one Clan, or even directly attacked Strana Mechty.

And if they didn't have the forces yet, they could have certainly built them up in a few more years. They built, practically from scratch, an army big enough to take on all of the IS in a short span of years, so it wouldn't have taken too long to make it bigger.

As for holding conquered territory, we know they evidently managed to do that in the Inner Sphere... Because if they didn't, then what did Devlin Stone do?

Lyrans letting planets stay in Wobblie hands? Well, they didn't do too much about the Arc Royale Defense Cordon... And again, looking at the Dark Age history, what do we see? The exact scenario you describe: the Lyrans handing over worlds to someone else.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:47 pm 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 5936
Location: Austin, TX
I've never understood how the WoBblies had enough troops to hold any planets, much less establish their empire. Enough troops to shock and awe, yes.....but we see today how hard it is to occupy one little country successfully.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:16 am 
Offline
Sergeant
Sergeant

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:57 am
Posts: 57
Actually, if you've been reading the books, they haven't done as much "Holding" as it sounds.

They never actually took the House Capitals. The first troops there were the ones that were supposed to be presented as "gifts" as part of the Star League. The ones that arrived on New Avalon talk about how they showed up with building materials to help New Avalon rebuild after the Civil War. The majority of fighting has been "Hit planets as hard as possible with Warships, then once ground troops can show up (months later) mop up. Alot of the planets hit by the WoB are never really "Held" except for ones they're claiming for their Protectorate (most likely the former Terran Hegemony worlds) and some of the mech factories, but even still, the number isn't that great.

They aren't taking on the entire Inner Sphere at once. Remember, the LA/FS have just finished a major war, the Lyran regiments are lucky to be at 50% strength. Plus the Lyrans are fighting the Mariks, and the Jade Falcons at the same time. The FedSuns for the first few years are fighting the Capellans and the DC somewhat. The Kuritans are wracked with internal troubles, with the Black Dragons striking openly, and formerly Fanatical and Elite regiments joining the Black Dragon cause. The CapCon is fighting the WoB and the Davions, and the Mariks are fighting themselves and the Lyrans. At this point in the Jihad its hardly the "WoB taking on all of the IS." More like "Hitting places where the houses are distracted." And even in this distracted state the WoB suffering setbacks. Heck, despite having Warships, including the Invincible in space above Tharkad, they couldn't stop the production of Rapiers.

As for occupying, part of it is fiat, part of it is apathy, and part of it is history. On planets such as New Avalon, the occupation (and the fighting is still going on) is probably more like reservations then actual occupation...strangers in a strange land. For worlds such as the former Terran Hegemony, these are planets that have been fought over for 300 years, that have a history of changing allegiances as easily as changing a flag. Occupations in Battletech have always been a mixture of fiat and apathy, especially on heavily fought over worlds. Otherwise the 3025 setting could've never worked, with lances/companies of mechs capturing and holding worlds. How hard would it be for a population of 200,000,000 to kill 12 mechwarriors?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:55 am 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3183
Quote:
How hard would it be for a population of 200,000,000 to kill 12 mechwarriors?
easy i´d say, how long could they stay inside a mech?
a single sniper (resp. 2-3 snipers in shifts) is enough. just deny them of food/water supply inside their mechs.

it basically becomes a siege-operation that the mechs could not win.

off course the snipers would be atacked, but the SOP of a sniper is not to be found anyway, and at a pop. of 200M there would be enough snipers for replacement.

as a .50 could kill at 2+ km you would have to secure a space of 4+ km in diameter, just to be able to leave the mech in security.
that gives a borderline of the secure space of 12+ km
if a kompany of mechs is to secure that its more than one km per mech...

or you have to build a fortress, difficult for so small a force.
or you would have to catch one...with a company?
id rather blow it up than give it to the enemy.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:10 pm 
Offline
Loki
Loki

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 11444
Location: Minnesnowta
So...yeah. Basically, planets fall because the people don't care.

In the very few instances where they DO seem to care (always the Capellan Confederation when they had author fiat on their side) the "defending" forces get ripped apart.

Counting out author fiat and holding to the basic idea and background of the game that has been established over 20+ years, the people don't give a rip what flag flies over their planet. Heck, most NOBLES don't care or they'd fight too.

Even most militias don't do anything, as most of them don't get involved so they can maintain the peace after the invading armies come and go.

The only people that seem to mind, are the ones running big bad BattleMechs and those who command them. They come, blow up other BattleMechs, and then go, leaving the locals alone for the next time a BattleMech force comes in for a quick snatch and grab. The locals just keep their heads down and let the storm blow over.

:)

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible :blah:
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:55 pm 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 2142
Quote:
Quote:
How hard would it be for a population of 200,000,000 to kill 12 mechwarriors?
easy i´d say, how long could they stay inside a mech? a single sniper (resp. 2-3 snipers in shifts) is enough. just deny them of food/water supply inside their mechs.

it basically becomes a siege-operation that the mechs could not win.
You do understand that Inner Sphere mechs are designed for long term habitation? They've got water and sanitation facilities and a significnat stock of food (seems to be a wek to a month's supply depending on model). Plus, the amount of fuel a fusion reactor consumes is minimal so it's not unreasonable to asusme a multi-year if not multi-decade supply.

Food is the only real issue and as long as the mech's are not in a hostile atmosphere that's not a big deal. Have the mech's form a cordon around the mech beign resupplied and have a mech with hands pass a supply bundle into the cockpit. The hatch on most mechs can be remotely operated from inside the cockpit so the MW doesn't even have to expose himself to fire.

-Jackmc

_________________
"Every problem is a nail. The key is finding the right type of hammer."

-PFC, David Hetzer 33rd I.A.C., 1st Davion Guards, on the art of strategy


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:54 pm 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3183
that raises the question: "where are the supply bundles from?"
it still is a siege operation...

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:44 pm 
Offline
Antisocial General
Antisocial General

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:35 am
Posts: 7883
Location: MLC, Lyran Alliance.
I'm watching, but deliberately not participating, since my opinion of the Jihad storyline is well known. Please, carry on.

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it. :evil:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 pm 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 1998
Location: The State Of Logic
While I don't like the storyline, I'll make a drive-by posting....

Sun-Tzu is the penultimate opportunist - a shopper on Ebay essentially. He's looking for the cheapest method possible to get what he wants, i.e. Capellan resurgence. His psyche is completely tied to the welfare (and survival) of his state, if nothing else to prove that he is above the madness that plagued his mother, et al.

That said, the best option for Sun-Tzu and his overstretched military theatres, is to remain with a Star League in order to continue reunification and consolidation of the Capellan state. To do any other action is to act entirely against the character as portrayed in Sun Tzu's historical actions.

He knows/knew his state could not easily survive a crash like a Jihad or anything else.

Not going to the League was merely fait accompli to the reality. The 'League was over because (it makes a case for why we're still fightin') no one really cared about it. The 2nd Star League was in name only - each state was using the post as a motorboat for resource consumption rather than what the Cameron's did (for pure control and power). So if Sun Tzu isn't in command, so he might think, then it can go do whatever it does as long as it stayed out of his hair while he looked at taking back Tikonov, Chesterton, whatever.

Or so goes my interpretation, which may or may not be on the mark, because, frankly, I haven't looked at the story for a really long time.

_________________
[size=85]To indeed be a god. [/size]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:25 am 
Offline
Loki
Loki

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 11444
Location: Minnesnowta
Well...remember...

OOC, MechWarrior Dark Age said the NSL was closed down, so when we got to that time period SOMETHING had to be done to explain it, at least in a half-***** way.

*shrugs*

This thread is not to discuss the reasonability of WHY the NSL was shut down.

It is to discuss who is at fault for the Jihad, and why. ;) THAT at least is something that can make sense. ;)

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible :blah:
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:01 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Hmmm,

Make sure you're looking at the forest and not the trees.

Why does Word of Blake have a pathological hatred of the Clans? Is it Tukkayid? Maybe. But maybe it's more. Much more.

Look deeply. What is Word of Blake? What do they stand for? Why do they stand for it?

I will tell you one thing. Those that hate the "Jihad Storyline" hate it because they don't understand it. When they do, they're going to feel very foolish for all of thier wailing, teeth gnashing, and clothes rending.

Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:36 am 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
Why does Word of Blake have a pathological hatred of the Clans?
Do they? It's hard to notice if they do, since they ignored the Clans and instead trashed the enemy of the Clans.
Quote:
Those that hate the "Jihad Storyline" hate it because they don't understand it.
No, I hate it because despite all the information we've thus been given -- both during and post-Jihad -- there isn't a single aspect of it that makes any sense to me.
Quote:
When they do, they're going to feel very foolish for all of thier wailing, teeth gnashing, and clothes rending.

Clutch
I was willing to allow for that possibility before. The fact that the Jihad now makes even less sense than it originally did has destroyed any of that optimism.

I'm not trying to argue... I gave it a chance, and it didn't happen for me. That's all.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:29 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Quote:
there isn't a single aspect of it that makes any sense to me.
Heh.

Making sense of things. I'm not trying to argue either, but here's my take on it.

Were it to be written as fiction, would the Battle of Midway turning out the way it did make any sense? Along that same line, would the fact that the one person most responsible for the United States victory, (Joe Roquefort ) was not only not decorated at all for his legendary efforts, he was transferred to command of a floating drydock due to a territorial pissing contest between the Office of Naval Intelligence and the Office of Naval Communications?

Heh, The less things make sense, the more realistic and plausable they are.

Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:34 am 
Offline
Wobblie Scum
Wobblie Scum

Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 1731
Location: Temple of Toaster Worship
Quote:
Why does Word of Blake have a pathological hatred of the Clans? Is it Tukkayid? Maybe. But maybe it's more. Much more.
We hate the clans because they've taken away our technological superiority. And reduced technology to even more of a tool than before. And blown apart the grand plan. The ultimate plan was always vulnerable to one variable: the return of the descendants of the SLDF in force, because their mere presence would have meant an outside force beyond our control and manipulation. It would have been perfect for us if Kerensky and his Exodus had just died in the black, but alas. Alas.

Our exclusive HPG monopoly went poof when the clans invaded and made a mess of things, causing all sorts of things like technology proliferation and sharing between the Houses, which made their technological advances faster than if they had all remained at odds with one another, not to mention all those samples of clan technology that the Houses obtained.

There goes our chances of ruling humanity after it's blown itself to bits, because at the rate they're going, it's not gonna happen. If the FC Civil War(civil wars, aren't) couldn't do it, if the 1st and 2nd SW couldn't do it, then it's not gonna happen any time soon. So who's gonna do it? Why, us.

As for blowing apart the Inner Sphere? As a true follower of Blake(IC), I don't have any problems with it. Never cared much for the Star League anyway, not unless it was founded on Blake's Blessed precepts. Getting the others(idiots, hehe) to go along was easy...

I just wish we could have hit the clans at the same time, but we didn't have enough troops, and the Master said to concentrate on the Houses first, so I guess he knows best... After all, the Houses are our worst enemies. Always have been. The clans are, when all is said and done, only a nuisance. They will be dealt with soon enough!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
That said, the above perspective is from the fanatic's viewpoint. From all that has been written about the Wobblies from their perspective, the standard Blakist doesn't really believe in the 'let humanity crumble, then we pick up the pieces' bit, but they would rather eagerly get behind punishing the IS for letting down the Star League.

I don't have a problem with why the jihad occurred.
Quote:
Not utilizing the Manei Domini to kill Clanners prior to joining the Star League makes sense. Why spoil the surprise? After joining, the Manei Domini were going to be a complete shock to the Clanners. Something they had never seen before. Units that fought as well as the Clans, were as fanatical as the Clans, and in some regards, had advanced technology over the Clans. Why give it all away by hitting the clans with tiny pinpricks, that could have enticed the Clans to come boiling over into the Inner Sphere before the WoB or the Inner Sphere were ready?
I'd point out that it'd be all too easy to secrete MD teams in the clan OZ, then hit them from inside and outside during the jihad if the clans were the true target. Or just innocuous attacks like messing up their supply lines, blowing up a warship or two due to 'accidents'(easy to arrange those!), spurring up the locals to increase their resistance, the Naamah ploy(a freebirth courtesan to a high ranking clan commander, if they go for such stuff).

Those pinpricks were something the clans would just chalk down to increased agitation from local partisans. The Manei Domini were never really caught in the Chaos March. I doubt they would have been caught in the OZ either. So your reasoning is bunk.

Others have pointed out, why not hit the clans at the very start? And so we apply Occam's Razor:
Because the clans were never the target from the beginning.

It was all about punishing the Inner Sphere. Right from the very start. Like I've said, the Star League issue was just a sop to the majority of the Word of Blake. There was no Plan A, at least, a Plan A that would be followed. Plan A was nothing more than a ruse to the rest of the Word, while Plan B, to punish and wreck the Houses, was always the true plan. And there were many, many ways to sabotage plan A and switch to plan B.

Personally, in character as a fanatic Blakist, maybe even a Sixth of June MD, I would be really offended if my faction's leaders had actually planned to hit the clans for the Star League, if it had not dissolved. We were storing up our strength for the past decade to serve the fu#%king Houses?!? For what?!? How does it serve Blake's Vision? At all?!?

TWG

_________________
The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:25 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
Quote:
there isn't a single aspect of it that makes any sense to me.
Heh.

Making sense of things. I'm not trying to argue either, but here's my take on it.

Were it to be written as fiction, would the Battle of Midway turning out the way it did make any sense? Along that same line, would the fact that the one person most responsible for the United States victory, (Joe Roquefort ) was not only not decorated at all for his legendary efforts, he was transferred to command of a floating drydock due to a territorial pissing contest between the Office of Naval Intelligence and the Office of Naval Communications?

Heh, The less things make sense, the more realistic and plausable they are.

Clutch
Actually, it does make sense. Not purely logical sense, but when everything is factored in, yeah, I can see why it happened. It shouldn't have, but given all factors, it makes sense.

But, as I said, there is not a single aspect of the Jihad or its aftermath that makes any sense to me -- even factoring in all the info we have been given. In fact, many aspects -- in my opinion -- either contradict known facts about the CBT universe, or flat out defy any logic I have seen.

I know that it's easy for people used to one thing to resist dramatic change. And I know it's also easy for those doing the change, or embracing the change, to denounce their opponents by saying they are refusing to accept change because of comfort with the status quo.

I'm not saying that's the case here... But it does seem to be a prevailing attitude: pro-Jihad people say that the anti-Jihad people can't deal with change, or are ignoring all these things that build the groundwork for the Jihad.

But we have been given a good amount of info, thus far. And the more I see, the less sense it all makes.

I rolled with the Clan invasion, the splintering of ComStar, the Fall of Terra, Operations Bulldog and Scorpion, and the FedCom Civil War. I may not have liked all those things (particularly the FCCW), but I accepted them, because they all made sense.

I could accept the Jihad, if I could find anything about it that was logical to me. No logic, for me, means no plausibility and no realism.

But... I fear this is becoming a threadjack, and that was not my intent.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:30 pm 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 5936
Location: Austin, TX
Admittedly, I can quite see the WoBblies deciding to take on the whole freaking galaxy-Germany and Japan thought they were bad-a$$ enough to take on most of the industrialized world, and had a decent go at it for a while.

Actually, I see the parallels pretty easily. The WoBblies divided and conquered, using massive overwhelming strikes designed to inflict mass panic. Witness Germany and Japan in the earlier stages of WWII. Blitzkrieg tactics with nukes...

The real problem came in trying to occupy that territory-both factions remained on the offense as much as possible, overextended, and were crushed.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:32 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Quote:
I could accept the Jihad, if I could find anything about it that was logical to me. No logic, for me, means no plausibility and no realism.

But... I fear this is becoming a threadjack, and that was not my intent.
Nah,

Not a threadjack per-se.

Honestly, the plausability of the Jihad is very important to the "why" and the 'how", which (I think) is the crux of this thread.

So long as no one devolves to ranting or name calling, I think we should be able to discuss, dare I even suggest debate the storyline.

At least, we should be able to.

Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:49 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10855
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Quote:
Quote:
I could accept the Jihad, if I could find anything about it that was logical to me. No logic, for me, means no plausibility and no realism.

But... I fear this is becoming a threadjack, and that was not my intent.
Nah,

Not a threadjack per-se.

Honestly, the plausability of the Jihad is very important to the "why" and the 'how", which (I think) is the crux of this thread.

So long as no one devolves to ranting or name calling, I think we should be able to discuss, dare I even suggest debate the storyline.

At least, we should be able to.

Clutch
You are correct Clutch, we should be able too do this, but everytime some one points out the areas they don't like or expresses any dissatisfaction with the current story line for what ever reason, folks seem to get upset and then the name calling such comes out and tempers flare up.

For example my points against the whole Jihad have not changed, money, manpower and logistical issues, and so far none of these have been answered in a manner that is logical even for the Battletech universe. And if expressing an opinion is going to be classed as ranting, then no; we won't be able to discuss this issue, since one side won't listen nor will the other. To be a topic of discussion both sides of the issue have to be heard.

Now that being said, I blame Kerensky, he should have never left the Inner Sphere. He could have pulled back in the Terran Hegemony, called it the Star League and claimed neutral the whole Hegemony and let the rest of Inner Sphere fight it out.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


Last edited by Karagin on Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:12 pm 
Offline
Wobblie Scum
Wobblie Scum

Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 1731
Location: Temple of Toaster Worship
Why? To punish the houses and hopefully bring about Blake's(or Toyama's) vision.

How? Use resources of the Five for certain units, and Terra for others. Build up navy, build up army. With Terra and the FWL, recruitment is no problem. Push most fanatic troops to equipment produced by Five. The best of them become MD. Money is tight, but the FWL budget provides enough. When ready, prepare to nuke capitals.

Voila! One jihad coming up!

TWG

_________________
The truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:10 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Quote:
Now that being said, I blame Kerensky, he should have never left the Inner Sphere. He could have pulled back in the Terran Hegemony, called it the Star League and claimed neutral the whole Hegemony and let the rest of Inner Sphere fight it out.
Haven't you just inadvertantly described exactly what happened with the Republic of the Sphere?

I'm not one to call anyone names, and I try not to get upset about this stuff.

My problem is that I know what happens, the whys and the hows. So, it's difficult for me to just listen to someone rant and rave about this or that not making sense and not tell them that they are as wrong as they could possibly be.

The real rub is, I wish that I didn't know. I wish I was "along for the ride" like most fans.

Anyway, all will be revealed some day. It won't make much difference to those that have painted themselves into a "The Jihad is implausible" corner, because they will probably be too proud to admit that they kind of dig why things shook out the way they did.

I'm no Fanboy, and I can tell you that I love how this all shakes out.

Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:18 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10855
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Quote:
Quote:
Now that being said, I blame Kerensky, he should have never left the Inner Sphere. He could have pulled back in the Terran Hegemony, called it the Star League and claimed neutral the whole Hegemony and let the rest of Inner Sphere fight it out.
Haven't you just inadvertantly described exactly what happened with the Republic of the Sphere?

Clutch
No, I don't think I am. See without ComStar and all of that goes with it, the IS can beat themselves to pieces and the Hegemony sits out the fighting and rebuilds. Now this could be two fold, it keeps their industry strong etc...but it means they don't have a battletested military later on down the road.

I doubt many merc units will willing give up their mechs to join the Hegemony and I doubt any of the Houses will give them planets without fight, so the two aren't the same the thing. :)

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:57 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
Quote:
My problem is that I know what happens, the whys and the hows. So, it's difficult for me to just listen to someone rant and rave about this or that not making sense and not tell them that they are as wrong as they could possibly be.
And the problem for the rest of us is that we don't know the hows and whys. And at the moment, there doesn't seem to be a grand push to rectify this situation.

The Jihad was inflicted on us several years ago, now -- and yet we still don't know all that much more than we knew then. People not liking it, based on a near-total lack of info, makes sense. Can we really be wrong when there is no info that contradicts what we think?
Quote:
Anyway, all will be revealed some day. It won't make much difference to those that have painted themselves into a "The Jihad is implausible" corner, because they will probably be too proud to admit that they kind of dig why things shook out the way they did.
And here's some of that attitude that pisses off the anti-Jihad faction. Trust me, the smugly superior "oh, it's great, but you won't like it because you're too stuck on the status quo" attitude does not win people over.

You want us to like it? Fine. Take some of the many things that make zero sense, and start explaining them. Give us some food, instead of telling us how great this meal we can't see tastes.
Quote:
I'm no Fanboy, and I can tell you that I love how this all shakes out.
No offense, but you're sounding like one. And as I said, that's not something that convinces people to listen to you.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:58 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Quote:
No offense, but you're sounding like one. And as I said, that's not something that convinces people to listen to you.
None taken. I don't want to come off as smug, that's the last thing I want. I actually don't want anything.

Please don't listen to me if what I say disturbs or upsets you in any way.

The seeds of the Jihad were planted in 1985, so it's been a bit more than "several years".

If I just came out and told you, even if I could, which I can't, and even though I could, I won't, without the proper context you'd just say, "That's gay." To which, I would reply, "No, that's not gay, if it were gay, it's clothes would match better."

Listen, when I say, "I know what happens" it isn't with a nahh-nah-nah-nah-nah, I know and you don't attitude. It's with a "we will live in interesting times" attitude.

If I really wanted to be smug, I'd do what the present authors always do, I'd go:

I can't tell you. :wink:

Now that is smug.

Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:49 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10855
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Quote:

The seeds of the Jihad were planted in 1985, so it's been a bit more than "several years".

Clutch
Clutch, I am sorry but you are going to have to provide proof of this one. I doubt very much that what the Jihad is now or even remotely close, was planned as far back 1985. The game had only been out roughly a year at that point. So if you could, please provide a source, and by that I am asking for something from the sourcebooks, house books, novels or tech readouts not I heard it from a friend who heard it from another friend who happen to be buddies with...kind of thing.

Thanks.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:25 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Eh,

I'm buddies with some people.

But as far as it goes, I can't tell you the details because right now all the pieces aren't in play.

I CAN tell you that this storyline didn't come out of a rush session due to the death of FASA. The how's, why's, and wherefores, were in place a long time before.

Look back as far as `1985 and you'll see where it all started.

Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:27 pm 
Offline
Scion of Coyote
Scion of Coyote

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:19 pm
Posts: 2803
Location: The FedBuns -- New Avalon's Best Bakery!
I have to concur with Karagin... Especially with the way the last novels about the FCCW went. It seemed like it was going to last for a few more years of realtime, and then there was an abrupt pacing shift in the novels. The last two or three novels felt like the writers were under pressure to wrap things up, and quick. It felt so rushed that I have a hard time believing that a 15 year old time line was being followed.

Looking back at the various sourcebooks, I don't really see anything that can be construed as foreshadowing the Jihad -- at least, not until we knew it was coming. Only then do we start seeing "hints" in sourcebooks.

_________________
I'm serious about being frivolous. :razz:

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... lorida.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:39 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Which kind of brings up another concept.

BattleTech has been a persistent universe since about 83 or so. It has developed alomg a single string.

With the now excepted multistring universe, what's going on in the other universes?


Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:42 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: Charleston, S.C.
Quote:
I have to concur with Karagin... Especially with the way the last novels about the FCCW went. It seemed like it was going to last for a few more years of realtime, and then there was an abrupt pacing shift in the novels. The last two or three novels felt like the writers were under pressure to wrap things up, and quick. It felt so rushed that I have a hard time believing that a 15 year old time line was being followed.

Looking back at the various sourcebooks, I don't really see anything that can be construed as foreshadowing the Jihad -- at least, not until we knew it was coming. Only then do we start seeing "hints" in sourcebooks.
Yes.

The Novel Line was sped up when FASA folded. There were some decent books that came out of that.....but yeah, it was speeded up.

Clutch

_________________
“And so it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a Battletech community gone soft. So, until we meet again, this is Clutch signing off. Duty now! For the Future!”


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:12 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10855
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Quote:
Eh,

I'm buddies with some people.

But as far as it goes, I can't tell you the details because right now all the pieces aren't in play.

I CAN tell you that this storyline didn't come out of a rush session due to the death of FASA. The how's, why's, and wherefores, were in place a long time before.

Look back as far as `1985 and you'll see where it all started.

Clutch
If you say so Clutch, and I am sorry again, but telling me it happen in 85 is well to far fetched to believe and you saying you know doesn't as Sheepy said do anything to make it better or help matters. Either you share what you can, ie give us the page number in a book from the early days of the game that says hey we as ComStar have this plan that will change the face of the Inner Sphere...that would be a start and no I am not talking about the normal ComStar propaganda that is out there, I am asking for a main character saying that they have plans laid down in stone. And yes the pun is intended.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:14 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10855
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Quote:
Which kind of brings up another concept.

BattleTech has been a persistent universe since about 83 or so. It has developed alomg a single string.

With the now excepted multistring universe, what's going on in the other universes?


Clutch
83? Funny, the box set says 1984 and the Star Date magazine that has the original write up in it has the same year, 1984. So for the public at large the game has only been around since 84...10 years to 94 with their No Guts deal...yeah I am going with the 1984 date.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 Next

All times are UTC-04:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
American English Language Pack © Maël Soucaze