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There are lots of canon modifications for existing base units and even more custom ones, like Evil-Eye introduced by Grey. So let's talk about these, from POV of rules and fluff.

What resources does it take to make modifications for 'Mechs, vehicles and rest? Are there any differences to modify Hunchback to Swayback, BNC-3E to BNC-3S, Thug to Evil-Eye, Vedette to its canon Laser variant, and all other possibilities?

I have completed my big scenario with Darth Tuttty, and I came out of it with five 'Mechs to start my mercenary unit. SHD-2H lost its AC, hip and foot (+ armor and internal structure), and unit's master tech considers making some modifications for 'Mech as it is repaired. What resources are needed in following three cases:
1. SHD-2H is completely repaired to its standard configuration
2. SHD-2H is modified to canon variant (for example SHD-2K)
3. SHD-2H is modified to my personal variant: AC/5 is replaced by PPC and two Med Lasers

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

I am not entirely sure what kind of answer you are looking for, but here is my attempt...

First, look at what is added and what is removed.

Second, think about what is actually involved with doing that.

For example, converting Evil Eye to use Clan tech involved removing the IS PPC's and installing Clan ERPPC's. By itself, that was a fairly easy change. Unplug one weapon, plug in another. From a realistic engineering standpoint, you might have to modify the mounting rails slightly, recalibrate the targeting system to the new weapon, and all that sort of thing. But generally speaking, swapping energy weapons of similar type and size is not a Big Deal; it can easily be done in a dropship bay.

Where things get complicated with Evil Eye is the installation of the Clan targeting computer. To make room for the electronics, I had to remove one double heatsink. It is also reasonable to assume that there was some internal modification (Mech electronics are fitted in something like shock-resistant rack mounts) together with all the necessary electronic adjustments. In short, this isn't a job that can be slapped together in the field; it MIGHT be possible in a dropship bay depending on your tech skills and resources. If not, you will have to take some down time in a depot...

Now, let's extend this a bit beyond Evil Eye, to other types of modifications.

Changing out ammo-based weapons, or installing ammo based weapons, can get complicated. You have to deal with ammo bins, feed systems, recoil vibrations and all that sort of thing. You MIGHT could do it in a dropship bay if you're just trading guns (like an AC/5 for a UAC/5) but big changes or totally new weapons will probably require depot time.

Changing from regular to FF armor is a dropship bay job. You are basically just trading out armor panels. No big deal.

Heatsink modifications, such as changing from singles to doubles, might be a dropship job, or it could require more extensive work. That will largely depend on the individual Mech.

Electronic modifications might be easy, or they might be more complicated as in Evil Eye. Adding Artemis to an LRM rack is fairly straightforward, as is installing Streaks for SRM racks. But other modifications that require changing around the internal structure (i.e. installing something totally new) can require extra work and special facilities (depot).

Now, if you want to install ES2, you have to take the Mech down to its bare bones and start completely over. At that point, you aren't talking about a refit...you're talking about a new Mech. So most of us here agree that you can't refit ES2...it has to come installed from the factory.

Check out some of my KISS refit jobs in the design forum to get an idea of what is possible at the individual/unit level.

Hope all that helps.

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

All right. I'll postpone Shadow Hawk's repairs and refit until it gets to Galatea. In addition I've read somewhere (BMRRev, Wikipedia or something) that major changes require work with gyro: calibrations adjustments, finetuning etc. Does TechManual or any other rulebook say anything about modifications and stuff, including resources to carry it out?

OmniMechs should be whole lot easier, quiaff?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Most of that stuff is IC only. It has no bearing on the actual gameplay.

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Doc
"An artist is never appreciated until he's dead."

actually the refit rules requite some kinda check when you mod, failing it means a miscaliberated gyro and a + to piloting checks, least in the BMR, off the top of my head

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[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/geek.gif[/img]

"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here."

Thanks, gonna reread construction and repair sections on that thing. If such mess up happens, can it be repaired? Can we assume that such fail happens with field refit, and professional techs with heavy factory scale equipment get the job done without glitches?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

That is the way I normally do it.

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
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[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

can't remember, no and probably.There's certain ways to improve the roll tho. I seem to remember tech skill, time etc

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[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/geek.gif[/img]

"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here."

Let's assume that heavy custom jobs, such as BNC-3S and CGR-1A9, are done in heavy facilities. There are tests and fixes for any and all glitches that might otherwise break design integrity and cause extra modifiers for piloting and gunnery checks. What would it cost for mercenaries to rent services of such facility?

Any official references appreciated, but feel free to describe house rules. As example, you could calculate cost for job that modifies MAD-3R to MAD-3D... or what ever

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

To totally break down a mech is 360 minutes (CBT RPG 1st Edition, p.91, CBT RPG 2nd Edition p. 147)

Replacements require the rules on p.59 MaxTech (not revised) looks like replacements take 120 minutes and comsumes an available weapon of the same class from stores while repairs take 100 minutes at one crit hit to 250 minutes at 4 crits hit and reuse the same weapon if successful (fall back to additional 120 min for replacement)

Minimum Time For Replacement is
90 {1/4th - damage} - 270 {3/4th+ damage} minutes to repair the internal structure
180 min for replacement of Foot & Hip Actuators
120 min for replacement of AC/5

or just about 9.5 hours.

Switching to a Canon Variant requires no customization points under the Map Pack Solaris VII rules, however time expended would be according to the table with time for removals bieng incuded(?) in the install time

Creating your own Variant would go according to the Rules Published in MaximumTech 1st Edition (p.62 - 63) & the rules in Map Pack Solaris VII p.36 - 37

Customiozations are best preformed far from the battlefield and in between battle repairs when thereare no other choices.

Note time to repair assume the presence of a Technician, 5 Assistant Technicians (adds a +0.2 multiple to time for each Astech not present), and a repair platform (adds a +1 Multiple to time if not present)... Dropship with mech bay or Emplacement with Mech Bay would almost gurantee the presence of AsTechs and Repair Platform.

So are all of these rules going to be group into one of the core rule books?

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

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Maybe

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I know that, and plenty more from BMR Revised. What I don't know, and want to know, is how much does it cost to do 'Mech customization in heavy facility that gets the job done without a glitch (like +1 for PSR checks). Is there any answer for that?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Damn those NDA's! Damn them all to hell!

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

The Map Pack solaris VII rules were created under the FanPro Era so they are current rules even if they do not make it to Tactical Operations Manual or Strategic Operations Manual

The Customization/Salvage/Repair rules from MaxTech are likely going to make it to TOM / SOM.

The C/S/R rules from RPG 1e & 2e are not likley to be reprised because last word is that the PTB thought that having the C/S/R rules in TOM was going to be good enough despite RPG 3e being 2d10 instead of 2d6 base... (it would be if they dual ruled it in TOM like CEG did for the SUV rules)

But we will really have to wait for Tactical Operations Manual or CBT RPG 3rd Edition (revised) and CBT RPG 4th Edition to see what rules are published...

Mercenaries Handbook 3055 stated that the price formula in the book (same price table as in BMR / TM equivelent for the time) was for custom variants (less than 20 produced a year) or variants that were newer than 5 years. Stating that Variants that had been in production for longer than 5 years and more than IIRC 20 units a year would be discounted 25% at the Factory...

So, considering that, the full cost for the new variant, less, perhapse, 75% of the cost of the Original Variant, would be the cost of getting an existing mech customized, including parts & labor... ?

As for the rest of it, its all down to whither or not you have a Repair Platform (or fully functional Dropships Mech Bay), an Adequately Skilled Technician/Engineer and his 6 AsTechs, and time enough to do it right...

Note: the Rules make no distinction between a Technician and crew working in a Mech Construction Facility, Dropship Repair Bay, Base Repair Bay, or at a Repair Platform out in the mud and Muck of the Field.

Guess again!
But do you really expect heavy facilities, that turns BNC-3E to BNC-3S and AS7-D to AS7-S, and techs working there abiding by these rules? If so, answer me this: what happens to modified 'Mechs, whether it's LCT or BNC, which design integrity gets messed up by elite tech?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

The RPG rules are more In depth than the BattleTech Rules

And the RPG Rules (and therefore the less detailed BattleTech Rules) stated that the standard assumes the technician has a Repair Platform and 5 AsTechs, the point of departure is that the RPG rules, rather than assuming that you have the Repair Platform and Techs, tells you what the time and difficulty increase will be if you operate Without the repair platform.

The Repair Platform is rarely, if ever, moved OUTSIDE of Dropships and Mech Repair Bays...

it is the presence of the Repair Platform, the technician, and the full team of five assistant techs that makes the Repair Bays special...

the "When Preforming repairs or replacements without the proper equipment" refers to the Repair Platform and the various tool kits... Cutting Kit (Armour), Joining Kit (Armour), Fusion Engine Repair Kit, Sensor Repair Kit, Electronics Kit, Gyro Repair Kit, etc.


As for what happens if you Mess up the balancing roll its in the rules that you have. something like a +1 PSR and a +1 to the gunnery

Or are you asking about the RPG 1e & 2e Rules... its an entre table or two with the effects of partial successes ... Jurryrigged repairs even have the chance of falling off or malfunctioning

Actually, I mean used Marauder, that has been converted to MAD-3D, and mercenaries are buying it. So can it come with compromised design integrity, how do you find it out, and what's the cost of the thing?

Other thing I mean, is mercenary unit making call for workshop and ordering custom job: convert MAD-3R to MAD-3D. So mercenary force's techs won't make roll checks, that's the job of workshop staff, who promise perfectly working MAD-3D without any extra PSRs or GSRs. What's the cost?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

MAD-3D Canon Design - No engineering rolls... (maybe.. but definately no customization points in the MP: S7 Rules)

Subtract the Cost of the Shared Components (that are in working condition)
Determine the Cost of the Non-Shared Components that are being removed... These are either being sold (GM will give you money earned from sale) or put into Unit Storage Time for removal not really specified... up to GM (i would postulate quarter to half the time for replacement of the same component)

Determine Cost of the Non-Shared Components that are being Added. Time is .5 to .75 time on table... and customization points are for Components added in the MP: S7 rules (Unless converting from Canon Production Design to Canon Production Design - note, RS: Unique Mech units are not Production Designs)

The Cost of the New Components is the lions share of the cost of the Conversion... Rebalance the deisgn

GM Could opt Levy an Additional 25% of the Cost of the Components as the Design fees, or state that 25% of the Table Value of the new units was the Cost of the Design...

If you are Tracking Tech, AsTech and Engineer Time, remember to factor in the cost of the Salary of the Technician and AsTechs at the full amount of time that the Rebuild Took