Welcome to the HeavyMetalPro Forums

Let's talk something about economy. Primary point of view is from mercenary's perspective, but feel free to offer other POVs as well. By now I've read most of the Mercenary's Handbook... and I feel it don't have enough details. It seems to assume that everything is available everywhere for same cost and modifiers and dice rolling. If book's rules are followed to letter, it takes about equal amount of time (decided by dice) and money to deliver supplies for merc unit in garrison duty regardless are they stationed in Skye, in Dustball or in Trellwan. Skye, capital of Federation of Skye, major industry world and also with plenty of water thus good agriculture. Dustball, much lesser industry, mostly desert surface. Trellwan, even worse than Dustball, food must be grown in agrodomes and there is no significant industry to manufacture even armor plating! Everywhere everything cost the same, modified only by details in contract. Book says in many places that it isn't required to follow it literally in every detail. So what alternative supply systems exists, canon or otherwise? Which ones do you use?

Repairs, cost of equipment and availability of it. It should be significantly cheaper get new PPC straight from factory than deliver it to Trellwan and further. Speaking about PPC, I've read that those things aren't very numerous in Free Worlds League. So merc unit requesting PPCs to replace lost ones of Marauder should often get response: "Sorry, we don't have those. But we have plenty of Large Lasers, Heat Sinks along and install instructions." We can speculate that PPCs are in League much better than elsewhere. So merc unit heading from Galatea to do their contract in League could pick up cargo bays full of PPCs, sell them, buy local supplies and still make good profit. What comes to repairs, refits and rest, those should be much higher quality in facilities of Hesperus II than on Trellwan. Again: what systems exist to model these details?

Do you know about space combat sims where player can play merchant? Merchants and folks. Those guys that buy hundreds PPCs straight from factory at bottom price, then deliver them to Free Worlds League and tear highest price they can get byh threatening to delivering them to someone else. Thug without PPCs is like... Or that's the way I would like it to be. Merchant business could be alternative or diversion for all mercenary business: player has Star Lord and several well armed DropShips, squadron of AeroSpace fighters, and he does lucrative merchant business where only few other merchants dare enter (Bandit Kingdoms, combat droppings of mercenaries). This could be done with few modifications of Mercenary's Handbook: rename task types, and slug it out in space and high altitude map instead on the ground. Has someone else thought about this, and is there anything concrete about it already?

By the way, in Mercenary's Handbook is mentioned using merc DropShips for cargo runs, but I don't remember seen how much they get of it. Grey, how have you come around of this with Concrete Dragons' Buccaneer and rest?

Just for Hell of it, I made comparison between monthly pay of green infantry and maintenance of salvaged Union. Results:
Monthly maintenance cost for salvaged Union: 700000 C-Bills
Monthly pay for green infantry soldier: 150 C-Bills
Time for green infantry soldier to earn money for one month maintenance of salvaged Union: 388,89 years!

Damn! It wasn't exaggerated at all!

[edit]
Maintenance for salvaged assault 'Mech is even greater than that: 1125000 C-Bills.

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

I started to type a long and rather angry reply to this, but I am just not up to it right now. Hopefully someone else can answer...

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

*squint*

Relatively short and not angry:

Matti, you're overthinking it again. As in any RPG system you're playing with your buddies, where the rules don't make sense, bend 'em. Example from 3.5 D&D:

A town of X size may have up to Y total value of goods, no one item of which is worth more than Z.

A large town had a reasonably-sized library. Said library included A) Very big golem guardians B) Copying services C) Browsing privileges and D) Magical spellbooks, scrolls and tomes of trivia.

As a brand-new level 5 wizard, I blinked, looked at my very limited list of 2nd and 3rd level spells, and rejoiced. I managed to badger the rest of the party into giving me fully half our available gold on the promise of creating some magic items on the cheap for them and went shopping.

Common spells? Yeah, they had those, mostly. A dozen scrolls of magic missile just sitting there. Lightning bolt, fireball, every hedge wizard in existence wanted to learn those.

Esoteric stuff that made the GM and everyone else around the table blink and go "Huh?" resulted in me rolling for as low as a 10% chance to find that spell.


Same thing here. Use common sense and have your GM eyeball the situation. Can you dump your black market clan AC/20 Ultras on Solaris for a good price? Damn skippy! On some backwoods Federated Suns Outback planet? Not unless there's a noble on planet with a personal Victor with spare cash.

If you're into gunrunning, what you describe could be a fun way to generate some cash. It pays well because you're risking some very pricey assets. Do some negotiating, get yourself a contract with somebody who doesn't control the space lanes, and drop off a few million C-bills worth of weapons, parts and ammo. Otherwise you're competing with major shipping firms. You'll get enough to pay for the dropship, payroll and a little left over, but that's it.

But where does the whole infantry soldier/dropship/assault mech thing come in?

I thought that's what I asked about: how do you bend and modify the rules to suit the situation? In other topic Grey has described what he as GM decides when someone in his group makes DFA against DropShip or light hovercraft charge against Atlas. I'd like to have similar discussion and examples regarding economy.

If you haven't already seen it anywhere, it has been written that one maintenance run for one DropShip costs about as much what average citizen earns in 3+ lifetimes. So I made math to chech that out, and it seems to match up (with assumption that green mercenary infantry has about same income as average citizen).

Maintenance of salvaged assault 'Mech costs much more than that. This is going to require some clarifications and debate about what 'Mech is counted salvaged and what isn't: Atlas loses leg, its MechWarrior ejects and walks home, Atlas is salvaged by enemy. At that moment Atlas seems to be considerably in better shape than Awesome that has lost right arm and torso, but by the rules it's not counted salvage. Both 'Mechs are repaired to full working condition, and by that I mean recordsheet that shows full working values for everything. Does it still take 225 support points to keep Atlas maintained? How about Awesome?

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Oh. Number one rule I've always played with has been: Clever ideas can get you a little bit of extra cash. Try for more and the GM will smite you.

Solaris salvage yard? Asking for a smiting.

Waterdhavian magic shop? <- Smite stupid.

Outreach repair depot? Smiting time.

Kobold-run Underdark Supplies'n'Safehaven chain of rest stops? Oh yeah, just begging for a smiting.

Get wind of a major battle, find out who won, and arrange for a large shipment of ammo/armor/expendables to wind up in orbit? Smite incoming.

Attempt to call local tow truck agencies after downing an Atlas with a shotgun? Smite me, baby.

After you have a few hundred million C-bills sitting there in cash, it's always back-of-the-mind tempting to say "I quit, I retire, I'm going to buy myself a Canopian private island, get a long-term contract with one of those pleasure circuses I've heard about, set up a good security force, and work on my tan."

As for support points, I haven't played with those rules. I've always totaled up the cost of the stuff that's missing, add in destroyed locations, and if they want to pay someone else instead of making rolls themselves, tack on a surcharge.

I thought those are in addition of SP and supplies, as costs of living. There are lots of things that can get missing, damaged and destroyed even without combat. That is where maintenance comes in.

Soldiers need their uniforms washed, repaired and sometimes replaced. Weapons need new parts so they keep functioning properly: rifle's lock, stock, barrel and rest needs to be changed from time to time in active unit, even when it isn't in active combat (training exercises and so on).

Wheeled ICE vehicles need tires changed when old ones wear off, oil needs to be changed, some parts in engine needs to be changed and so on.

Aircrafts, AeroSpace Fighters and BattleMechs... those need lots more maintenance and tech support than wheeled ground vehicles. Even without active use in combat, there aren't many cases when they are just sitting around when under contract.

DropShips and JumpShips. Even when they don't take part to combat at all, maintaining DropShip that is actively used costs LOTS. NASA's Shuttles cost millions of any currency of maintenance after every landing and before next mission. Compared to this, maintenance of any DropShip is dirt cheap.

How can you expect keep your combat assets in combat if you don't pay for this stuff?

[edit]
If there are alternative systems for maintenance, I would like to hear about them.

Grey, you have said that Grey's Shadows have full self support. Does this mean they have enough techs so they don't need buy SP, even for their heaviest AeroSpace assets (DropShips and JumpShips)? Is it cheaper to have so many techs around than paying for some SP?

When unit is under contract that doesn't have much action, like garrison duty, can some stuff be temporarily mothballed and part of infantry send for month long vacation? Does Concrete Dragons spend 15 SP for every 'Mech every month even when they don't have to take them out of hangar? (Renfro's militia can take care of law, order, lesser riots and rest without them)

In Mercenary's Handbook is mentioned that mercenary unit can use their tranport assets for trade runs, as Concrete Dragons does. But I don't remember seeing what it pays for unit. Did I just miss it? Is it in some other book? What does Concrete Dragons earn for leasing their Buccaneer for merchants?

[another edit]
If merc unit has more techs than they have use for (like after battle, where company's worth of combat hardware was lost), can those techs make money for unit by serving other units and civilian industry?

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Originally Support Points are "In Lieu" of C-bills

4 digits representing 9+ Digits, Fasa was constantly doing that.

the more modern incarnation of support points is a derivitive of the BattleValue of the piece of equipment... while OK...

lets put it this way,

High Cost doesnt always mean that something is more effective / useful... and maintenence costs would be more a factor of how much time it took to maintain/repair something as well as the cost of any incidental parts that are too negligible to show up on the BattleTech radar.

Mechwarrrior / BattleTech RPG 3rd Edition

P.48 Free Trader Life Path

P.76 Well Connected Trader

So trading and such is a mechanic already covered in the rules... In Mechwarrior / BT RPG 3rd Edition trading without having the skill would constitute untrained skill use... Roll 3 dice and take the results of the WORST two as the result.

Be advised that trading can very easily be a campaign in itself

Also, branching off slightly from the Mercenary Unit Creation Rules you could easily build something like a Trading Cartel, or, build a unit that was intended to guard the merchants

Can anyone answer?

Or let me ask it this way: When you used to play by Mercenary's Handbook, in what situations did you (or GM) declare unit to be salvage for maintenance, and requires more support points to maintain than new unit?

Grey!

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Matti: When I am roleplaying and writing stories, I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING DAMN ABOUT THE RULES. So stop asking me nitpicky rules questions before I start totally ignoring you.

As for what the Concrete Dragons got per trade run, I mentioned it in one of the stories. They got 10% of the profit, plus expenses (i.e. fuel and other overhead costs). Is it covered in the rules? Hell if I know, I never bothered to look. It was something I made up to fit the story.

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

I had almost forgotten this topic. Anyways just came to my mind that by the books merc unit gets its pay at end of contract. Wolf's Dragoons had 5 year contract with Draconis Combine starting from 3023. Was WD entire that time without income?

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

the five year contract is a clear case of "the rules dont fit the facts"
i´d say that the pay at end of contract rule is for short-time contracts. anyone playing a merc-unit can negotiate with the GM/employer about the exact conditions. that includes time of payments. i bet the dragoons got their pay annually at least, maybe 10 % after each year and 50% additionally at the end or whatever they could negotiate with the GM/employer.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.

If you look at the Mercenary Handbook Revised, the contract generation rules make it pretty clear that contract settlements are paid out in monthly installments.

Also, with all due respect, I really think this thread is a prime example of why rules don't need to exist for every obscure situation. Just wing it, man.

exactly.

Also, I seem to remember that it is standard policy to give the merc half up front and then the rest either in installments or at the end for a short termer. Either way, the MRBC gets FULL payment in advance and they hold it in escrow, giving it out to the merc at successful milestones or giving it back to the employer on abrogation of the contract by the merc.

And if there is a dispute over who abrogated the contract, then the MRBC investigates.

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Maybe this would be better to base your campaign off of?

Modified Warchest System
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums ... msg1074003

_________________
[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img][img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... ryland.gif[/img]

I handle it with pure moderator fiat. I don't feel the need for hard rules for things that common sense should cover.

THANK YOU.

_________________
Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Nuff said!

_________________
[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l52 ... 0a8555.jpg[/img]
[url]http://www.murphyslawgaming.com[/url]

For instance, in our new Shattered Sphere game at the Frontier - set in the chaos march era - we've decided to use the old Merc 3055 to generate units. It's not a perfect system but we're using it because it's easy to assign players merc units a base amount of cash, have them spend it how they wish and go from there. Compared to the later rules for merc units, sure there's allot of points that aren't covered but they work good enough to get ourselves started with.

Details are okay, but sometimes bogging yourself in trivial information isn't helpful. In forum games, from experience I've found that having too many details bogs down game play and in the end, what's more important? Being right to the nth percentile or having fun?

One reason I stick to Introductory Rulebook and (sometimes) Starterbook: Sword and Dragon when playing analog BattleTech

_________________
[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]