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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:10 am 
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Antisocial General
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This was inspired by Khanjohn's question about the Cappies and Terra...an elegantly simple way to get around the Jihad.

When Sun-Tzu Liao became First Lord of the Star League, he almost immediately began abusing his position. One of his most notable abuses was the use of Star League support in "pacifying" the Chaos March, the greater part of which became part of the Capellan Confederation.

That much is canon. To that, I add the following:

To justify his abuses of power in the Chaos March, Sun-Tzu Liao set the "liberation" of Terra as the ultimate goal of the Star League's campaign, to firmly establish the capital of the new Star League. In addition to the resurgent CCAF, he enlisted the aid of ComStar (always ready to oppose the Word of Blake) and Clan Nova Cat, who would be honored by aiding the liberation of Terra (whether or not that technically made them ilClan is another argument). Together, these forces routed and scattered the Word of Blake, inadvertently pre-empting (or at least delaying) the Jihad. Terra was then firmly established as the neutral capital of the Star League, to be defended by the SLDF and ComStar.

Of course, there would be a great deal of new history to follow that; for example, the Mariks would probably interpret all this as "Capellan aggression" leading to a new war on that border. Also, what happens if Clan Nova Cat is allowed to move to Terra as its permanent SLDF garrison? But still, it's a simpler and more direct way to kill off the Jihad than many of the scenarios I've seen...

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:53 am 
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Sounds plausable but i dont see him doing this maybe one fo the other house leaders in that place. This would mirror what we are dogin now which takes place in the setting of the Second succession war with the Not named(wolverine/333rd) taking over a perifery state to rebuid in to take terra and restore teh starleague. As they will be the only ones with a naval fleet and they are struggling trying to convert from clan idealoges back to IS ones it is interesting. My group has all teh intentions of taking over Terra and hate comstar. they dont understand how they control communications etc and ti shold be free. Lets jsut say their first run in with comstar left a bad taste in their mouth.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:53 am 
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Sounds good, Grey

Quote:
Lets jsut say their first run in with comstar left a bad taste in their mouth.
High communications fees?

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:22 am 
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Sign me up...your idea has more merit and thought behind it then the current story line and sounds a lot more like a possible and probably outcome versus the mess we have now...

It does amaze me how often we the fans have a better view on things then TPTB...

Looking forward to more on this if you expand on it...

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:29 am 
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Hi fees, nozy etc. really got mad when they found out they run all hpg stations, negotiate all contracts, that the global currency was Comstar notes but they are peaceful etc.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:38 pm 
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This is an interesting alternate history. When Sun Tzu came to power and began working the Chaos March, WoB wasn't much of a player and easy to "throw under the bus" for some House's ambitions. Sun Tzu'd need to be careful how he phrased things and encourage Terrans to chart their own course (which is how WoB seemed to enlist Terra and the Blake Protectorate), but this could really work.

There are lots of powers to enlist in Sun Tzu's crusade, but watch for metagaming. WoB wasn't a "bad guy" before 3067 and the collapse of the Star League; it was just weird to most of the Inner Sphere. This timeline has the advantage of significantly prolonging the life of the Star League by giving it a new cause and reason to exist, which in itself erases the causes for the Jihad. WoB might well play along with the change in direction despite losing Terra - until 3067, WoB was willing to accept the peaceful results of the new Star League. If the Star League stays alive, WoB will probably play along.

Of course, if the Star League survives and WoB doesn't go nuts on the Inner Sphere, then WoB might unleash its original plan to destroy the Clans. That's a whole escalation of warfare that the rest of the Inner Sphere isn't ready for, but I'd love to see. Nukes and cyborgs taking down the Clans? Why not cripple one munchforce with another? :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:37 am 
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Quote:
. . . WoB wasn't a "bad guy" before 3067 and the collapse of the Star League; it was just weird to most of the Inner Sphere . . .
I got'a beleave most people knew Wobblies were "trouble" since the mid-'50s; About as bad as a Cappy contract for mercs when said mercs weren't on Sun-Tzu's "BFF" short list . . .

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:43 am 
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Well, the IS DID know they were nasty enough to put guns to merc dependents and then use those mercs' colors to initiate a major invasion of Terra. That alone is going to piss off a LOT of people and the moment Sunny boy called to do that he would have merc volunteers in droves to take the fight back to those treacherous rats.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:25 am 
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Commanding General
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Quote:
I got'a beleave most people knew Wobblies were "trouble" since the mid-'50s; About as bad as a Cappy contract for mercs when said mercs weren't on Sun-Tzu's "BFF" short list . . .
Right.
Quote:
Well, the IS DID know they were nasty enough to put guns to merc dependents and then use those mercs' colors to initiate a major invasion of Terra. That alone is going to piss off a LOT of people and the moment Sunny boy called to do that he would have merc volunteers in droves to take the fight back to those treacherous rats.
Yep. Hence the AMC and its war against WoB in the Chaos March.

The Houses had a different view, though, up to and including their reaction to the second/nuclear attack on Outreach. Per "Hidden Armies," pg118, Dawn of the Jihad:

"Relations between the Dragoons and the former ComStar
were never good. To anyone who could read a map, the Blakist conquest
of Terra set the two groups on a collision course. The Blakist-sponsored
violence on Outreach was shocking, but unsurprising in light of the veiled
declaration of war represented by the formation of the Allied Mercenary
Command.

"The rest of the Inner Sphere was not oblivious to all of this, but they
were in no position to take action against a probationary member-state
of the Star League over dealings with a non-aligned state. If challenged
over their actions, the Blakists could have argued that the whole affair
lay outside the jurisdiction of the Star League council—or even called
on the Star League to come to their aid.
"

The Star League's always been a prick toward outsiders. :)

Which is a complication in any politicking: WoB isn't an outsider. You'll really need to line up interests against WoB (probably including the Terrans, but the Terrans will be tempted by any offer to be throne of a new Star League).

You know what might work? Instead of having Sun Tzu be the point of deviation for this history, have WoB be the trigger. Have WoB doing something a little crazier and a little more alarming during Sun Tzu's time as First Lord (e.g., use a nuke in the Chaos March, maybe against the Capellans), so then Sun Tzu has an excuse to go for Terra.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Commanding General
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From other topic:
Quote:
That is one reason that I used to justify why I got rid of the Wobblies in the Shadowverse after Operation Scorpion. Even if the Reformers didn't do something about it, the Houses would have said ENOUGH...
Cray contributed to topic but never commented about that. link

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Loki
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Ah...but in the 3050s and early 3060s the Wobblies WEREN'T probationary members of the Star League. They were just some other band of nutters who took over Terra while ComStar was holding the line against the Clans by putting guns to the head of innocent civvies and using false colors.

The only reason the canon Houses and ComStar didn't WIPE them was because of the threat of the Clans.

Having Sunny boy USE one of the Clans to help wipe them is an ingenious idea, and one that would most certainly work.

The question isn't whether or not they would join in. The question is what would Sunny boy get out of being so generous as to liberate Terra from its Toaster-worshiping occupiers? He's always in it for his own gain after all.

Interestingly, him being where he is, the CC so far from the Clan invasion corridor, it really does make him the one to consider doing this, IF he could gain from it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:28 pm 
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Commanding General
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Quote:
Ah...but in the 3050s and early 3060s the Wobblies WEREN'T probationary members of the Star League.
That's right. I knew they were on the verge of being full members in 3067 when the Star League collapsed and figured they'd be in the Star League a lot longer but, no, they were admitted in 3064 along with the Concordat and Comstar.

That's even better and makes the scenario easier to play out.

The Clans, though, are playing with fire. If you let one too near Terra, they'll all want to come along and probably won't be playing nice with the new Star League. The Clans are a lot of firepower, yes, but they're a real risk.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Loki
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Yes, the Clans would NOT be happy with that.

Of course, thats a win-win for Sunny. He gets "something" for liberating Terra, and his enemies in the other Houses may get pounded by irate Clanners. Its a real shame the Davions aren't FIRST on the list of poundings, but what can you do?

;)

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Antisocial General
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Quote:
You know what might work? Instead of having Sun Tzu be the point of deviation for this history, have WoB be the trigger. Have WoB doing something a little crazier and a little more alarming during Sun Tzu's time as First Lord (e.g., use a nuke in the Chaos March, maybe against the Capellans), so then Sun Tzu has an excuse to go for Terra.
There's an idea. Suppose that the AMC was successful enough that the Wobblies got desperate and did something drastic enough that the Star League had no choice but to intervene. In come the SLDF "peacekeepers" who (accidentally or otherwise) end up on the wrong end of a Wobbly WMD. With that, the SLDF's gloves come off, and all hell breaks loose on the Wobblies...especially if it was the Nova Cats that took the WMD hit. The SLDF wouldn't be able to restrain the Cats in that event; they would invade Terra without a batchall and launch a claws-out melee that wouldn't end until the Wobblies were Annihilated...

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Last edited by Shades of Grey on Fri May 08, 2009 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:30 am 
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Loki
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:shocked:

Nova Kitties with the claws out

:nuke:
:end:

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:28 am 
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So where do we sign up for this better thought out, less silliness, no uber armies and crazies ala Rifts added in for "fun" version of the storyline?

We have been talking about this for about a week and seem to have better thought out plan of action for the BT universe then what we have been being feed for the last what is it now 7 years or so? Again it amazes me how much more grounded and mindful the fans are of things and how they have a better grasp on what folks are looking for then TPTB do...

Looking forward to more on this...it would work well with my idea of the Terrans tossing out the WoB and have a small interstellar state, size wise is like 6 systems...

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:57 am 
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Corporal
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Why would the Terrans toss the WoB out? The WoB is what they know, given it's what ComStar was for near three hundred years.

I'm surprised they didn't toss ComStar out when Focht secularised the world and opened it up again to universe. But no one ever has a issue with the fact that a pseudo-monastic order threw off centuries of theocratic trappings (not to mention the power and influence they had as information brokers), doctrinal enforcement, and simple self-superiority on the whim of a man who they know isn't even ComStar.

cos you know, that's *much* more believable than the fact that folks from those beginnings might actually want to go back to it...

btw, not talking about the ComGuards either - but the folks who run the HPGs etc who make up the overwhelming majority of ComStar. Folks think WoB is contrived, I've been arguing since Lost Destiny that Focht's ComStar is one of the most unbelievable things in what can be a really unbelievable universe ;)

on topic: remember any issue with WoB has to be great enough to overwhelm False Thomas Marik's veto. No House Lord is going to let Sun-Tzu go near Terra without unanimous support. Attacking SLDF peacekeepers isn't that reason, nor is WMDs going on the two precedents beforehand.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:04 am 
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Loki
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You do have a good point about ComStar. I do wonder why there wasn't a little more...problem...there.

You know...why did the True Believers and all LEAVE ComStar? With all of the cool stuff we see they have now, why didn't they just kill Focht and anyone else who disagreed with them? I mean...honestly...Entire Secret Worlds full of Clan Wolverine assassins, under ground BattleMech and WarShip factories, and all the other stuff. It would have been a lot easier for them to just kill Focht and his "Pitiful Little Band" and maintain their control.

Or maybe LET him take over, then take HIM over and let him remain the figurehead of a "New and Clean ComStar" when things don't actually change under the surface.

You know. Just saying. :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:37 am 
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Commanding General
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Quote:
Why would the Terrans toss the WoB out? The WoB is what they know, given it's what ComStar was for near three hundred years.
ComStar also ran Terra with a fairly light hand and left government to a secular organization, the Bureau of Terran Affairs. This is seen in Jihad Secrets: The Blake Documents (pg11-14), where Terra's involvement in the WoB Protectorate is much more an issue of self-interest than True Belief. The early WoB Protectorate was founded by Terran business interests and diplomats, not bible-waving Terran toaster worshippers.

Also, JHS:3072, pg13, "Why Do They Serve" article quotes a Terran's opinion (during one of the Battles of New Avalon):

“Sometimes I wonder what the hell I was thinking, coming
to armpit planets like this. I mean, New Avalon is supposed to
be one of the sweetest planets the Feddies got? Kee-rist, it’s
like I’m stuck in the 25th century here or somethin’. Fuel cellpowered
cars and the dumbest computers I’ve seen outside of
Antallos. Frickin’ boondocks.

“And then I see that goofy-assed sunburst fl ag, and I remember
why I’m here. It’s those damned Houses. They need their
teeth pulled. They ain’t done nothin’ right in three centuries,
and spent most of the time tryin’ to pillage Terra.

“Like, when the Houses fi nally manage to put the Star
League back together, so like Terra can breathe easy for a bit,
and what happens? It comes apart because some inbred royals
think the Star League, you know, the thing that coulda got
back the hundred of their planets from those crazy Clan bastards,
wasn’t worth it.

“Yeah, the Robes are kooks, but they got their hearts in the
right place: cut the rocks off the Houses until they learn to pour
piss out of a boot without a roadmap. They’re doin’ all right by
Terra, so Terra’ll stick by them as long as they’re worth it. That’s
why I’m here.”


Make WoB not worth the trouble. Have that simmering Bureau of Terran Affairs rebellion on Terra brew up a bit and have WoB crack down. Or lure out the Terrans with the offer of running some of the Chaos March without answering to WoB. Make it worth their while. By 3058, they're going to be sitting on an increasing number of re-activated military factories and still lightly run by WoB. You'll have some happy with the status quo and some True Believers but, hey, only about a third of colonials backed the American Revolution. Who says democracy needs a majority? :)
Quote:
I'm surprised they didn't toss ComStar out when Focht secularised the world and opened it up again to universe. But no one ever has a issue with the fact that a pseudo-monastic order threw off centuries of theocratic trappings (not to mention the power and influence they had as information brokers), doctrinal enforcement, and simple self-superiority on the whim of a man who they know isn't even ComStar.
Lots of people did have a problem with it, and sided with WoB. There'd be no WoB if there was no objection to the secularization of Comstar.

However, most (old) Comstar employees were not card-carrying toaster worshippers. Remember, Comstar was a huge communications corporation. It ran planetary postal services, telephone networks, trivid cable systems, and much more - hell, it was a mega-bank that issued the common currency for 5 trillion people. HPGs were a high profile, critical, but minor element in that corporate juggernaut. Depending on the contracts Comstar ran on a planet, it might employee millions of local people who simply did not give a wet fart about Blake's words. They were just postmen, telephone technicians, and other average Joes who had had no time for Comstar's cultism. It'd be inevitable that a lot of HPG crews would be littered with people like that, too, if Comstar does in-house hiring and transfers.
Quote:
btw, not talking about the ComGuards either - but the folks who run the HPGs etc who make up the overwhelming majority of ComStar. Folks think WoB is contrived, I've been arguing since Lost Destiny that Focht's ComStar is one of the most unbelievable things in what can be a really unbelievable universe ;)
When Focht said, "Comstar's a sham," the majority of Comstar's employees said, "Okay, whatever. We're still getting a paycheck, right?"
Quote:
on topic: remember any issue with WoB has to be great enough to overwhelm False Thomas Marik's veto. No House Lord is going to let Sun-Tzu go near Terra without unanimous support. Attacking SLDF peacekeepers isn't that reason, nor is WMDs going on the two precedents beforehand.
False Thomas turned against WoB in canon. He can be convinced to do it again.
Quote:
You know...why did the True Believers and all LEAVE ComStar? With all of the cool stuff we see they have now, why didn't they just kill Focht and anyone else who disagreed with them?
Because Focht's backers were the secular workers who didn't care, the vast majority of the organization. As shown by WoB's size vs Comstar's, the True Believers were in the minority - a very distinctly smaller group. They didn't have the numbers to pull off Scorpion, they were a small fraction of Comstar's size, and the firepower - the ComGuards - were mostly secular troops hired from across the Inner Sphere. (The Comguards who joined WoB largely did so out of disgust with Victor Steiner-Davion, not because they were True Believers.)

Further, there's some serious evidence that very few Comstar high rankers knew about the MD, Hidden Worlds, etc.. The True Believers can't stick around to use super-secret factories and organizations they don't know about.
Quote:
Or maybe LET him take over, then take HIM over and let him remain the figurehead of a "New and Clean ComStar" when things don't actually change under the surface.
You sure that didn't happen? The one gaping credibility hole in the Schism is Focht's response to the seizure of Terra. "Meh, we don't really need our key factory world we just mobilized to fight the Clans. Let's focus on fighting the Clans rather than reclaiming Terra."

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"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:47 pm 
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Commanding General
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Quote:
Looking forward to more on this...it would work well with my idea of the Terrans tossing out the WoB and have a small interstellar state, size wise is like 6 systems...
The late 3050s is the time to do that, with the unsettled Chaos March, weak WoB control of Terra, and growing Terran military industry (gratis Comstar). Per the Blake Documents, Terran businessmen and diplomats were key in securing the pre-Jihad voluntary members of the Blake Protectorate.
Quote:
on topic: remember any issue with WoB has to be great enough to overwhelm False Thomas Marik's veto. No House Lord is going to let Sun-Tzu go near Terra without unanimous support. Attacking SLDF peacekeepers isn't that reason, nor is WMDs going on the two precedents beforehand.
Right. Tricky. So get the Terrans to come out and play.

Talk to the Bureau of Terran Affairs, talk to the power groups on Terra, businesses and provincial leaders. Ask them if they'd like to rebuild a...Terran Protectorate...over the disheveled worlds of Chaos March, which Terra formerly ruled. The core worlds of the Inner Sphere - those in the Chaos March - are also not inclined to rejoin their House conquerers, who ripped them from the Hegemony and then spent several decades nuking them.

So, this plays into Sun Tzu's "I'm only doing this to be a peacekeeper." He gets to use words like "plebiscites" and "Terran peacekeepers," and "ending the Chaos," and "returning the Star League to its rightful throne."

Draft timeline, suggestions welcome:

3061: IIRC, this is the year Sun Tzu becomes First Lord. He's hungry for Capellan worlds in the Chaos March and St. Ives Compact.

3062: After a year of dirty deeds in the Chaos March and St. Ives Compact. Sun Tzu sees the mother of all opportunities to make his life easier: WoB, pissed at Sun Tzu for interfering with their efforts to establish the Blake Protectorate, back the wrong Chaos March crazy resistance group, who goes on to nuke the handful of SLDF peacekeepers he's been using. Sun Tzu declares that he is now interested in liberating all of the Chaos March from the dread influence of WoB (who is outside the Star League at this time).

Before any House shits themselves at the idea of a Capellan-held Terra, Sun Tzu firmly announces that he hopes to leave Terra in the care of the Star League, where it can take its place as the rightful throne of the Star League. He further proposes the creation of the "Terran Protectorate," a new nation to be ruled by Terrans, for Terrans, and which will include several disputed worlds in the Chaos March (the ones other Houses might object to Capellans ruling). Isn't Sun Tzu an awesome statesmen? Sun Tzu thinks so.

The idea is questionable to the Star League, but it is getting pretty distracted right now. Kurita and da Bears are just about to go at it hammer-n-tongs, the FedCom Civil War is about to begin, and the FS is going to invade the Combine. But the Combine wants to annex the Lyon's Thumb, so some members make a watered down statement to the effect of, "See what the Terrans want to do."

3063: Covert visits to Terra identify alternative powers to WoB, which is getting plenty pissed at the idea that it'll be unseated as the ruler of Terra. WoB gets even more unhappy when it finds it lacks the usual despotic controls to really control Terrans - all control flows through the Bureau of Terran Affairs, which is a secular bureaucracy that has singlehandedly run Terra for 250 years, accepting only general policy statements from Comstar's high council. Comstar and WoB have no secret police, no infiltration into BoTA, and few patsies. Comstar did a fair job of convincing Terrans that the Inner Sphere was full of baby-eating barbarians and otherwise manipulating their information so they were pro-Comstar, but it did not directly control the planet. And Focht undid centuries of brainwashing in 6 years by opening the Comstar Vault of History and opening Terra extensive outside tourism and trade.

It's a volatile situation, and WoB commits a second mistake: it brings in extra WoB Militia troops and WoB ROM to crack down on Terrans who are simply talking about the cool-sounding idea of the Terran Protectorate. Terrans suddenly have dirty foreigners on their planet throwing random people in jail, censoring news broadcasts and websites, and so on. WoB ROM and WoBM are almost clueless on Terra because they have negligible connection with BoTA - it's like they just invaded a whole new planet. And the Terrans are swinging solidly against WoB with every abuse.

Sun Tzu is able to exploit the situation for propaganda purposes, but can't really invade Terra yet - the rest of the Star League is calling shennanigans and (fake) Thomas is threatening vetoes. What Sun Tzu can do is send SLDF peacekeepers to worlds near Terra, the future Terran Protectorate, and set up what he claims is the Protectorate government - which is just waiting for Terra to step in. The Combine is happy to do this because this gives legitimacy to its actions in the Lyons Thumb.

And the other thing he can do is exploit another WoB weakness: a good portion of the WoB militia is made of ComGuard units dissatisfied with ComStar politicking and involvement in House matters. (e.g., Victor Steiner-Davion is due to get several ComGuard divisions wiped out in the FC Civil War soon.) So he drops a hint to Terrans via his political advisors on Terra and...

3064: A jumbled group of Terran figureheads, like provincial governors and BoTA division chiefs, call for aid to the Terran Protectorate (but anonymously, so they can't be dragged off into the night), citing abuses and crimes against humanity committed by WoB on Terrans. They also (per Sun Tzu's suggestion) let WoBM units on Terra (those who seem less than properly worshipful of toasters) know that, hey, the Protectorate is looking for some new core units. Sign-up bonuses include Terran real estate, citizenship, hot girls, fast fusion-powered cars - Terra's rich and not afraid to share. Sun Tzu introduces the Protectorate to the Allied Mercenary Command (that was formed by 3064, right?) and its heavyweights, like the Dragoons.

In Sun Tzu's last months as First Lord, he oversees the deployment of Capellan SLDF peacekeepers throughout the Chaos March right up to the borders of the so-called Protectorate. He covers loans for the Protectorate government to afford the AMC (Terra's rich, it can pay back those loans), which offers regiments of leading merc units to aid the Terran plight.

At this point, Thomas Marik can call foul, but Terrans are now on the loose.

It'd be nice to think that WoB could be thrown off Terra quickly, but it does sit on planetary defenses and WoB has started its build-up toward the destruction of the Clans. This means that, scattered across the Periphery, on Gibson, and on Terra, WoB has probably has tens of regiments (all types), 30 to 50. (Could be worse: if this had waited until 3068-3070, it'd be significantly larger if WoB grew at the same rate as the ComGuards after 3058). But this is not an immense, single army: its a bunch of raw recruits scattered in many locations, and Terra is a big source of it (both in terms of manpower and industry). Terra has to survive the first counter-attack, and then it - if the new anti-WoB government holds together - should be fine. Sun Tzu's parting gift: Star League law banning the sale of arms to WoB for its war crimes on Terra.

As Thomas Marik becomes First Lord, the defecting WoB units and hired mercs buy Terrans time to mobilize their own units. Comstar is strangely inactive, citing an unwillingness to fight its estranged WoB brothers.

Comstar and the Word of Blake both fail to become junior members of the Star League at the 3064 Whitting Conference, owing to the Terran conflict. Instead, the Taurian Concordat and Terran Protectorate are admitted.

3065: False Thomas Marik is feeling some of the issues that turned him against WoB in canon. WoB has been embezzling far from from the Free Worlds than it was allowed; also, Fake Thomas doesn't like WoB's actions on Terra, which seem to be undermining the cause he thought he signed up for. So, he does not aid WoB and tepidly enforces the arms sale ban, though WoB has no trouble using cut-outs.

While Terra cannot dig WoB out of all Castles Brian, it has largely driven WoB units on Terra into guerilla actions and has secured its factories. With no heavy firepower to back them, WoB ROM is unable to terrorize Terrans into silence anymore and is methodically cleaned up by BoTA's police forces, leaving Terrans free to vent their rage at their ill-treatment. (Snotty rich folk are usually annoying, but their outrage is easy to direct.) The "Terran Protectorate" is able to reliably arm and equip its military forces, though properly training new Terran MechWarriors and fighter pilots takes longer.

The standing problem in 3065 is mixed control of Terran space. WoB can send its WarShips and reinforcements to Terra, if its careful to avoid the zones threatened by Terran-controlled SDS bases. Its piecemeal reinforcement scheme (sending in troops as fast as they can be pulled from scattered WoB facilities) is unfortunate, but the canonical Jihad shows that WoB is not a great military strategist. Still, its this sort of bleeding and occassionally successful orbital bombardment raid that keeps Terra on the ropes. (On the plus side, the deaths of millions of Terrans in orbital bombardments is undermining WoB support across the Inner Sphere, particularly from the True Believers who were entranced with Blake's message of peace, love, and toaster worship.)

By the end of 3065, though, Terrans have seized control of the last of the SDS emplacements, dug WoB resisters out of the last Castles Brian, and has restored the planetary HPG. This allows Terra to spend its enormous cash reserves (seized from the megacorp that is WoB) to hire mercenary aerospace units from across the Inner Sphere and erode the WoB orbital blockade of Terra. With Thomas Marik's resistance, WoB is also not able to pilfer any FWLM WarShips to thicken its blockade.

Elsewhere, Sun Tzu is cackling as he reclaims more Capellan worlds. The Combine is happy with its acquisitions from the Lyon's Thumb and distracted by the Clans. The FedCom Civil War continues and Comstar is distracted the Precentor Martial throws FS-loyal Comstar units into the Civil War.

3066: This is the year of the big WoB invasion of Terra, which gives Terran defenders exactly the stand-up fight they were looking for. The WoB guerilla units and small groups of annoying super-borgs were, well, annoying. But a clean fight after almost two years of preparation is exactly the wrong way to bring Terra to its knees, since it masses WoB's WarShips and troops in one place. Terrans use nuclear weapons on the fleet when it is over 75,000km from Terra (per the Ares Conventions), whittle down the troop transports with SDS fire, and allow the surviving WoB DropShips to land en masse so Terrans don't have to hunt down regiments of scattered invaders. Instead, they can destroy them in detail in a few battles.

[Seriously, any storyline needs a good, big battle to vanquish the bad guy.]

With the blockade broken, Terrans are able to freely trade with the Inner Sphere and gain access to Mars' mines and Saturn's shipyard, which means the Protectorate military will grow by leaps and bounds. With WoB's military strength broken and access to new military goods all but gone, the balance has shifted definitively: WoB will not be able to reclaim Terra, and is restricted to a ghost of its former military strength.

In the long run, the effects are long-reaching. WoB's military was lost to defection and destruction by Terrans before it reached the firepower it had canonical in late 3067. For 4 years, WoB was robbed of Terra's production, and the 3066 invasion broke its back, destroying most of its WarShips and remaining organized ground troops. In its place is a mobilized Terra, which has most of WoB military industry (both ground units and WarShips). Any plans WoB had for the destruction of the Clans are dead.

3067: The Fourth Whitting Conference is held on Tharkad. The Concordat and Terran Protectorate are promoted to full membership. In the future, the Star League council will permanently establish itself on Terra. The rotating system of First Lordships will continue for the foreseeable future.

With full membership, the Protectorate pushes to reclaim WoB's communication businesses as the foundation of the Star League Bureau of Communications. The watered down measure that is approved by all members of the Star League simply allows a field day on WoB on stock markets. The Terran Protectorate has to continue to battle WoB covertly, with lukewarm aid from Comstar.

_________________
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:40 pm 
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Lots of people did have a problem with it, and sided with WoB. There'd be no WoB if there was no objection to the secularization of Comstar.
by "people" I meant the fanbase, not in-universe population. You never hear complaints about how Stackpole completely changed ComStar literally overnight, but 15 years of products crafting the Word of Blake as the next bogeyman is seen as sudden.
Quote:
However, most (old) Comstar employees were not card-carrying toaster worshippers.
I know it's fun to say toaster-worshipper, but remember it never says anywhere that WoB deifies technology. Blake, Waterly a bit, but never tech. In any case, they might not have been adherents to the ComStar brand of thinking, but they sure as hell acted like it with ROM looking over their shoulder. It started off as all innocent but >300 years of doctrinal enforcement ingrains certain things in the collective psyche. Eventually mantra becomes reality.

as for the alternate timeline - go Total Recall - Fall of Terra has the Mars mining syndicates as the most opposed to WoB rule. So crank that up with maybe the synidcates bringing in a merc unit to declare Mars independent. Early on the Titan Yards were still in ComStar hands too before Klaus Hettig handed them over, so perhaps that could be the entry vector.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:49 pm 
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I think more of Comstar/Comguard would be interested in a Terran family reunion than was mentioned. After all aren't most of them from Terra anyway? And what about the Nova Cats and WiE? They would so dig an intersteller camping trip/snipe hunt of epic proportions!

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:04 am 
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Cray: Awesome timeline. You took the essentials of what I was thinking, and expressed them in excellent detail with your own additions. Very well done.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:46 am 
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Quote:
Quote:

Lots of people did have a problem with it, and sided with WoB. There'd be no WoB if there was no objection to the secularization of Comstar.
by "people" I meant the fanbase, not in-universe population. You never hear complaints about how Stackpole completely changed ComStar literally overnight, but 15 years of products crafting the Word of Blake as the next bogeyman is seen as sudden.
Yes he changed it overnight...BUT he didn't have them nuking planets and tossing around chemical weapon and uber armies. We all knew ComStar was playing fast and loose with things. No one trusted them as far as in universe leadership. Okay so far so good. Now let's jump forward, ComStar shows everyone their army...it's clear that it has SL mechs and tech, BUT not on a scale to take over the universe, even with the holy grail of Terra, fast forward to the Clans, okay big bad boogiemen....everyone fights them, stalemate. Actually there was a lot more that could have been done with the Clan invasion but for some reason it was left to players to have fun with, okay we see the ComStar Army get mauled by the Clans but holding their own. Then pop a group of wackos and die hard fanatics leave ComStar, head to the Free Worlds League, and once their they just happen to have the know how and all the needed skills to start making spare parts for the HPGs, building and retooling mech factories, training people to operate mechs, pilot fights and warships, as well as tanks and be infantry...feeding them, clothing them, making sure they have medical care etc...all of this from the time they split from ComStar, I believe it was late 3052, would need to check the Lost Destiny end chapter for the date as well as the ComStar Sourcebook and Handbook, to their current have manged to find everything needed to conquer the universe, all in a mere 22 to 30 years...and on top of this manage to keep the rest of the Inner Sphere blind to their actions. And you don't see a problem with this?

The Clans had 300 years to build up their forces, fighting among themselves along the way, and yet many of the fans are will and ready to buy into the idea that in less time the WoB can build up a force that can shatter the Inner Sphere without as much as a mistake until after the fact when we already know they lose via the Mechwarrior future timeline. If they had given the WoB more then a mere two decades to build things up and made it known to some degree that they were doing something, maybe a minor war tossed into slap the WoB down and given them more reason to attack worlds around them, might have been better. But to keep telling us that having Terra and all of this money that they seem to be able to compile in 20 to 25 years can make and pay for all of this is really pushing the limits a lot of the fans are willing to let suspension of disbelief go. As much as I hate saying Lucas got things right with the hidden clone army in SW, he at least kept the number small. They had 20 years to train and grow the first 2 million clones, with a total of 3 million clonetroopers as the official in universe given size of the Republic's clone army. So even a universe know to be far fetched and on the edge as far as being believable managed to keep things reigned in and not out there in left field...

If something is going to be believe able and do able, it can not have more questions raised then are answered. None of the books put out about the Jihad have given facts, all they have given are news reports and pages of jumbled wording that is really nothing more then a waste of space in the books. Hence why a lot of fans aren't happy.

Now removing the WoB from the picture, while still allowing for a major war to reset things, isn't a bad idea. In fact would be better if things are done in manner that uses the backstories to push the time line forward. Nukes and vast fleets and super armies is so over done in BT that it is more cheese then story.

There were several plot lines to run with to get a 5th War, Laio-Mairk wedding, the Bears moving full to the Inner Sphere thus causing the Clans to break out into open warfare over the new split in their political issues etc...Steiner- Davion Civil War, could have been longer and much more destructive and led to numerous minor states popping up, to include a new Terran state.

Now if we have the SL forces with the Cats going after Terra to remove the WoB, then we are still using the know elements to push the story forward are we not?

I very much doubt Terra is the peaceful, happy to have either ComStar or WoB in charge of them, and given how people are, I am willing to bet there are some who are wishing for a return to the days of the SL and Terran Hegemony with the power and prestige that Terra had during that time. That alone should be more then enough for many to be working against both ComStar and WoB control. And no I don't buy the idea of ComStar having infiltrated every single resistance group on Terra.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:04 am 
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Quote:
I'm surprised they didn't toss ComStar out when Focht secularised the world and opened it up again to universe. But no one ever has a issue with the fact that a pseudo-monastic order threw off centuries of theocratic trappings (not to mention the power and influence they had as information brokers), doctrinal enforcement, and simple self-superiority on the whim of a man who they know isn't even ComStar.
Worse: Focht is really Steiner! Anyone, who has read En Garde, should know why leaders of ComStar didn't like Steiners and Lyrans: they didn't bought ComStar's religious bullcrap and were spreading this influence to FedSuns!

Quote:
3064: A jumbled group of Terran figureheads, like provincial governors and BoTA division chiefs
There is universal term for such people invented by Lyrans: social general

Quote:
If they had given the WoB more then a mere two decades to build things up and made it known to some degree that they were doing something, maybe a minor war tossed into slap the WoB down and given them more reason to attack worlds around them, might have been better.
There have been minor wars involving WoB: conquest of Terra, WoB meddling over Hall and elsewhere on Chaos March... and I don't have many sourcebooks or any novels from that era.
Quote:
If something is going to be believe able and do able, it can not have more questions raised then are answered. None of the books put out about the Jihad have given facts, all they have given are news reports and pages of jumbled wording that is really nothing more then a waste of space in the books. Hence why a lot of fans aren't happy.
Are you talking about Blake Documents here? BT officials tell it's hard facts.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:15 am 
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Quote:
[

Quote:
If they had given the WoB more then a mere two decades to build things up and made it known to some degree that they were doing something, maybe a minor war tossed into slap the WoB down and given them more reason to attack worlds around them, might have been better.
There have been minor wars involving WoB: conquest of Terra, WoB meddling over Hall and elsewhere on Chaos March... and I don't have many sourcebooks or any novels from that era.
[/quote}

Minor wars as in they lose, have to give major concessions and thus need to come back fighting, so far nothing you listed had them lose anything.
Quote:
Are you talking about Blake Documents here? BT officials tell it's hard facts.
The books that make up the Jihad do not tell anything as hard fact. They give things are reports rendered by news reporters. Facts would be things like numbers and dates that don't change, facts would as be hard information that tells us something, not a bunch of reports that don't tell us anything at all. And a true source book would be just what is needed to cover this. So far all we have gotten is a novel done via handbook style.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Cray: Awesome timeline. You took the essentials of what I was thinking, and expressed them in excellent detail with your own additions. Very well done.
Thank you. I left open the end of WoB, and there's also how the Clans behave after the 3067 truce expiration. And, as snowridr observed, there are lots of open details yet. Feel free to run with it.

************************
Quote:
I think more of Comstar/Comguard would be interested in a Terran family reunion than was mentioned. After all aren't most of them from Terra anyway?
No, not at all. As I noted earlier in the thread, most Comstar personnel are only from the planet they're hired on. The few robe-wearing sorts are a tiny minority of the Comstar population. Most are simply techs, postmen, etc. hired locally to meet Comstar's enormous manpower needs for postal services, trid, vidphone services, etc. That can be millions of people per planet and Terra cannot supply all of those.

However, politically, I really danced around Comstar's involvement in the Terran Protectorate. There's something weird about Focht, Comstar-ROM (apparently mostly WoB sympathizers) and how Comstar didn't free Terra when WoB was at its weakest.
Quote:
And what about the Nova Cats and WiE? They would so dig an intersteller camping trip/snipe hunt of epic proportions!
That's an excellent question. I'm also real curious about how the Terrans will react to the Clans, and vice versa.

*****************
Quote:
I know it's fun to say toaster-worshipper, but remember it never says anywhere that WoB deifies technology.
I know. I was being flippant.
Quote:
as for the alternate timeline - go Total Recall - Fall of Terra has the Mars mining syndicates as the most opposed to WoB rule.
They were most worried because they lived technologically dependent lives. However, WoB found them very easy to buy off, starting in about 3059-3060 (just after the Fall of Terra was written). Read "Touring the Grand Canal of Mars" on BattleCorps under the News section.
http://www.battlecorps.com/BC2/news.html?article=440
http://www.battlecorps.com/BC2/news.html?article=441
http://www.battlecorps.com/BC2/news.html?article=442
http://www.battlecorps.com/BC2/news.html?article=443
http://www.battlecorps.com/BC2/news.html?article=444

The last 2 links, if they work for you, address WoB and Comstar's handling of Mars.

_________________
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"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:44 am
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Location: Ozstrayla
Quote:
Yes he changed it overnight...BUT he didn't have them nuking planets and tossing around chemical weapon and uber armies. We all knew ComStar was playing fast and loose with things. No one trusted them as far as in universe leadership. Okay so far so good. Now let's jump forward, ComStar shows everyone their army...it's clear that it has SL mechs and tech, BUT not on a scale to take over the universe, even with the holy grail of Terra, fast forward to the Clans, okay big bad boogiemen....everyone fights them, stalemate. Actually there was a lot more that could have been done with the Clan invasion but for some reason it was left to players to have fun with, okay we see the ComStar Army get mauled by the Clans but holding their own. Then pop a group of wackos and die hard fanatics leave ComStar, head to the Free Worlds League, and once their they just happen to have the know how and all the needed skills to start making spare parts for the HPGs, building and retooling mech factories, training people to operate mechs, pilot fights and warships, as well as tanks and be infantry...feeding them, clothing them, making sure they have medical care etc...all of this from the time they split from ComStar, I believe it was late 3052, would need to check the Lost Destiny end chapter for the date as well as the ComStar Sourcebook and Handbook, to their current have manged to find everything needed to conquer the universe, all in a mere 22 to 30 years...and on top of this manage to keep the rest of the Inner Sphere blind to their actions. And you don't see a problem with this?
no, because I've read the books and not the fan analysis, or worse, fan supposition. Plenty of people have dismissed the storyline without actually bothering to read it. I do sympathise with those folks that don't like the JHS style format, but that's why we have the Blake Documents do the old style sourcebook approach to the early Jihad. It explains exactly where the WoB army came from, as well as the early Jihad conflicts that allowed them to act basically unopposed in that former TH area of space.

thing is, the DA stuff makes it seem like WoB was this all conquering army. In the worlds of the Republic yeah, they sort of were. But they never got past the old Terran Hegemony boundaries. And nor are they trying to. Same with the WMDs did they use them? For sure. In the quantities that people think? Not at all.

as for how they had the know-how and ability to survive in the FWL? They didn't go there with just the clothes on their back. It was largely an amicable split (though one filled with animosity on one side) before "monkey warfare" took off. One of the worst things I think to happen to WoB was Victor Milan's cameo appearance by them in one of the Caballeros books, which left them looking like overzealous inept fools. Despite the fact that ROM was feared as the most successful and ruthless intelligence agency in the Inner Sphere (they weren't ninjas though...that held them back...). But you live with what you got.
Quote:
The Clans had 300 years to build up their forces, fighting among themselves along the way, and yet many of the fans are will and ready to buy into the idea that in less time the WoB can build up a force that can shatter the Inner Sphere without as much as a mistake until after the fact when we already know they lose via the Mechwarrior future timeline.
who said they didn't make mistakes? WoB made plenty of mistakes - the entire Jihad is basically a mistake because Cameron St. Jamais over-reacted at the dissolution of the Star League. Not to mention Tukayyid, Luthien, New Avalon, Dante, etc etc. The Jihad didn't start as a well thought thing - it was panicked reaction.

you're getting fixated on the idea that the entire Inner Sphere was affected by the WoB - every nation was. But not every part of every nation was. The DA books make it sound overrreaching because they're mainly about the Republic, and the Republic is basically the former Blake Protectorate.
Quote:
If they had given the WoB more then a mere two decades to build things up and made it known to some degree that they were doing something, maybe a minor war tossed into slap the WoB down and given them more reason to attack worlds around them, might have been better. But to keep telling us that having Terra and all of this money that they seem to be able to compile in 20 to 25 years can make and pay for all of this is really pushing the limits a lot of the fans are willing to let suspension of disbelief go.
ComStar (as in Focht's ComStar) had a higher rate of growth in 5 years than WoB did in 15. And that's with the fighting in Bulldog and Serpent and the FCCW. Not to mention the rebuilding of the FedSuns and Lyrans. WoB grew from 10 Divisions to 39 (I'm ignoring the Shadow Divisions because they honestly don't count) in 15 years. That's less than two divisions per year, that's also less than four regiments (of any type - not four `Mech regiments) per year. Now factor in the defections from the ComGuards when WoB claimed Terra, the defections when VSD was made PM, the second round of defections when VSD was *again* made PM, the subverted units in the FWL (who were stated as being influenced waaay back in FM:FWL), and WoB's growth is not that impressive. Not to mention the fact that it's stated those divisions are not even full strength. Add in the Circinian recruits (Calvin McIntrye remember?), and it's less about why is WoB's Army so big, and more why is it so small?
Quote:
If something is going to be believe able and do able, it can not have more questions raised then are answered. None of the books put out about the Jihad have given facts, all they have given are news reports and pages of jumbled wording that is really nothing more then a waste of space in the books. Hence why a lot of fans aren't happy.
Except for Blake Documents which has lots of hard sourcebook style info, specifically to counter those thoughts. But it also has the JHS-style new articles (to advance the timeline), and ISP-style shenanigans because they're fun. Unfortunately some people ignore the pretty bluntly-worded "take this part with a grain of salt" proviso, and we have folks running around proclaiming as fact the WoB and C* are nothing more than Wolverine fronts. You know what? They very well might be. But they might not be too, and it's deliberately left ambiguous. But that's one section - the first half the of the book and the rules section is old school FM/sourcebook bits. Complete with campaign maps and and unit roster.
Quote:
I very much doubt Terra is the peaceful, happy to have either ComStar or WoB in charge of them, and given how people are, I am willing to bet there are some who are wishing for a return to the days of the SL and Terran Hegemony with the power and prestige that Terra had during that time. That alone should be more then enough for many to be working against both ComStar and WoB control.
I'm not sure if you realise, but that's how the Blake Protectorate was formed in the first place - appealing to common Hegemony heritage of the Chaos March worlds. diplomacy brought as many worlds in the Blake Protectorate as did force of arms.

So WoB/C* would have to do something pretty bad to overwhelm the near three centuries of peaceful co-existence with the Terran populace. Ofc you could just have a terran based demagogue. Someone who gains mass public support but just doesn't like WOB or comstar.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:01 am 
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Well then IvanR, you have your opinion on the matter and the rest of us have ours. Enjoy yours and I am sure we will enjoy ours.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:13 am 
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Okay two things here bugging me...if the Cats and SLDF go after Terra under Sunny's leadership, how are they going to get past the SDS and once through where would they start landing on Terra?

Do they dive the task force into parts, one goes after the Titan Yards, another takes out Mars, one goes after Venus and the remainder goes for Terra?

For this to have the needed info we need a more detailed overview of the Sol System and what it has. In other words we need to know the little black secrets of what the original SLDF left behind in Sol System and what ComStar had actually done from conception to WoB take over...

The other thing is this, would Victor stop focuses on the Clans to worry about this new threat or would he still have his hands tied with the actions of his sister and her grab for power? What actions would Mairk take to not be left out? The Combine as well would want to play in the region, beyond their commitment to the SLDF.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:23 am 
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Quote:
Okay two things here bugging me...if the Cats and SLDF go after Terra under Sunny's leadership, how are they going to get past the SDS and once through where would they start landing on Terra?
The suggestion in my outline was to have the Terrans takeover or cripple the SDS facilities on Terra, then hire lots of aerospace aid to wear down what remains.

I'd be more worried about Blakist WarShips from outside the Terran system than SDS mobile units in the 3062-3065 period. Whatever stopped Case White was barely adequate with massive mutinies across the Comstar fleet, a complete intel advantage by WoB, and WoB's use of space-to-space nukes. So if you take a defense system that barely managed to halt Case White, strip it of all those advantages, and roll back its production 3-4 years to the 3062-3065 period, there's probably squat for an SDS system beyond Terran ground bases.

Hence, worry about the WoB WarShips...which are also fewer in number in the early 3060s, especially when you get fake Thomas Marik turned against WoB.
Quote:
Do they dive the task force into parts, one goes after the Titan Yards, another takes out Mars, one goes after Venus and the remainder goes for Terra?
Depends on what Terrans think of the Clan/Star League aid. Part of motivating Terrans to overthrow WoB involves baiting them with the notion of independence and harnessing their military industry to create an army to overthrow WoB. What are they going to think about foreigners, particularly a Clan, invading their system? Will the Terrans worry this is the beginning of a general invasion, which is what the Clans might do if they see the honorless, abjured Nova Cats head for Terra? Whatever the Terrans thought about Comstar/WoB, those organizations did leave Terra with a firm impression about the Clans.
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The other thing is this, would Victor stop focuses on the Clans to worry about this new threat or would he still have his hands tied with the actions of his sister and her grab for power?
I think he would focus on the Clans and FedCom Civil War. The FCCW ate AFFS/LAAF units faster than the Clan invasion; you can't ignore a military problem that large to join a land grab in disputed territory, particularly not when the disputed land is partly going to a new, risen Terran nation.
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What actions would Mairk take to not be left out?
Marik got the worlds they wanted in 3058. The rest, which is going to the Terran Protectorate, is hard to dispute. The FWL would also (ideally) be paralyzed by its leadership, if you manage to keep Thomas Marik from aiding WoB. With that achieved, I think the best you can hope for out of Marik is to not interfere one way or another.
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The Combine as well would want to play in the region, beyond their commitment to the SLDF.
The Combine is enormously distracted, too. During this time, it has a war with the Ghost Bears, a war with Davion, and internal unrest from conservatives to worry about. Hence, it's lucky to get the Lyon's Thumb.
Quote:
For this to have the needed info we need a more detailed overview of the Sol System and what it has. In other words we need to know the little black secrets of what the original SLDF left behind in Sol System and what ComStar had actually done from conception to WoB take over...
That's addressed in the Comstar Sourcebook, Fall of Terra mission pack, Dawn of the Jihad, and Blake Documents. Various Clan invasion SBs and Field Manuals help, too.

We know when the Comguards were first started;
When they grew to their 4th Succession War size;
How fast they rebuilt after Tukayyid;
That recovery from Tukayyid exhausted SLDF stockpiles on Terra;
That Comstar started Terra's mobilization in 3052 because of that exhaustion of stockpiles;
How fast Comstar bounced back from subsequent losses in the 3050s and 3060s (pegging acquisition at 7 regiments per year, including infantry, vehicles, and mechs);
Number of SDS facilities and Castles Brian on Terra;
Academies and training facilities in the Terran system;
That Case White nearly succeeded despite everything stacked against it;
That the Dragoons lost at Mars mostly because of surprise;
Size of WoB forces in 3067.

With all those facts, you can stitch together a pretty clear picture of the Terran system, which is what I used in my time line. There's not much in the way of active SDS defenses in the 3062-3065 period.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:35 am 
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Well then IvanR, you have your opinion on the matter and the rest of us have ours. Enjoy yours and I am sure we will enjoy ours.
Karagin, your version of the Jihad is so out of date that what you're posting is now essentially a fan version of the Jihad, not the canon one, even though you mean to refer to the canon Jihad.

If you don't update your facts (and IvanR is offering the correct information), then how can you criticize the writers and the Jihad timeline if you're not even addressing the real Jihad? :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:48 am 
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Cray wrote: Number of SDS facilities and Castles Brian on Terra;
Academies and training facilities in the Terran system;
Where is this info. I must have missed this. I am interested in this and if it has a time line as well.

:whip:

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:00 am 
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Cray already answered pretty well, but I'll offer some of my own ideas.
Quote:
Okay two things here bugging me...if the Cats and SLDF go after Terra under Sunny's leadership, how are they going to get past the SDS and once through where would they start landing on Terra?

Do they dive the task force into parts, one goes after the Titan Yards, another takes out Mars, one goes after Venus and the remainder goes for Terra?
Allow me to retell a story from ancient China, where an invading general was urged by his officers to attack a small fortified city that lay in his path. He replied, "The city is small and well defended. If I succeed, it will mean little, but if I fail, it will be a disaster. It is a waste to spend soldiers in taking cities when the same expense will take a province." He therefore bypassed the city and pushed on into the heart and crossroads of the country, and thereby forced the surrender of the entire district.

So it goes with Terra. Everything else in the Sol system, and in many of the nearby systems too, depends on Terra. Take Terra, and the rest falls of its own accord. Therefore, a concentrated assault on Terra is the best and overall least damaging option.
Quote:
The other thing is this, would Victor stop focuses on the Clans to worry about this new threat or would he still have his hands tied with the actions of his sister and her grab for power?
The FCCW became inevitable when Melissa Steiner died, so unless you want to rewrite a LOT more history, there will still be a FCCW. Of course, Victor will be torn between his various duties and loyalties, but I think blood will win and he will focus on dealing with Katherine. That will give Sun-Tzu more freedom to deal with the Chaos March and Terra in his own charming fashion, but it could also limit the SLDF/ComStar resources he has available, depending on events at the Clan front and in the FCCW.
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What actions would Marik take to not be left out?
That depends largely on Fake Tommy, and his willingness to risk exposing himself and the long-running plot. That is a trump that either ComStar or WoB could hold over his head, to either stay out of the conflict or join it. He also has to deal with the FWL's internal politics; it's doubtful that the FWL's other power players would be willing to jump into a potential firestorm over an issue that could be seen as none of the FWL's business. Fake Tommy is really damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, but at the same time, there is freedom in that kind of position, freedom which could allow Fake Tommy's rift with WoB to manifest itself. Imagine this scenario: the issue of Terra and the WoB comes before the Star League Council, and instead of voting for it or vetoing it, Fake Tommy ABSTAINS. This non-vote sends a quiet signal that he is willing to play the political game with ComStar (who will protect him accordingly), the Cappies (as a foreign relations step) and the Star League (who can interpret his non-vote as "disapproval, but cooperative"). Now it's the Blakists' necks on the line, Fake Tommy wins by being "left out" as you say, and the FWL can continue its growth while watching everyone else tear each other apart.
Quote:
The Combine as well would want to play in the region, beyond their commitment to the SLDF.
The Combine has a lot of other concerns in this time period (Clans, FCCW, internal unrest, etc.) but the Combine has been fighting multi-front wars at least since the fall of the First Star League, so it's not like the DCMS isn't used to it by now. Set priorities, shift forces, adapt and overcome...that's the DCMS way. The Combine would be happy to jump in on Sun-Tzu's side for Lyons' Thumb, and while they might not be able to fully commit ground forces beyond that, they could provide a moderate amount of naval support (freed by batchalls from the Clan front) to help reduce Sol's system defenses. In fact, a Kyushu with its onboard Mech regiment and an escort or two, sounds like a good Combine representative in the actual assault on Terra...

That's just some ideas, anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:46 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Cray wrote: Number of SDS facilities and Castles Brian on Terra;
Academies and training facilities in the Terran system;
Where is this info. I must have missed this. I am interested in this and if it has a time line as well.
I'm pretty sure it's in the Fall of Terra. Comstar SB also has it (pg86):

"Of the original 500 SLDF bases on Terra, the Com Guards
currently use 200, keeping the others carefully sealed for future
use. Terra's Castle Brians, once used to defend the cradle of
humanity, now serve as staging and storage complexes for a vast
array of Com Guard military equipment . Heavy security ensures
that only Com Guard troops have access to these complexes"

There are more details scattered elsewhere. I admit I might've misremembered the existence of firm Castles Brian/SDS base counts.

***********************
Quote:
That depends largely on Fake Tommy, and his willingness to risk exposing himself and the long-running plot. That is a trump that either ComStar or WoB could hold over his head, to either stay out of the conflict or join it. He also has to deal with the FWL's internal politics; it's doubtful that the FWL's other power players would be willing to jump into a potential firestorm over an issue that could be seen as none of the FWL's business. Fake Tommy is really damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, but at the same time, there is freedom in that kind of position, freedom which could allow Fake Tommy's rift with WoB to manifest itself. Imagine this scenario: the issue of Terra and the WoB comes before the Star League Council, and instead of voting for it or vetoing it, Fake Tommy ABSTAINS. This non-vote sends a quiet signal that he is willing to play the political game with ComStar (who will protect him accordingly), the Cappies (as a foreign relations step) and the Star League (who can interpret his non-vote as "disapproval, but cooperative"). Now it's the Blakists' necks on the line, Fake Tommy wins by being "left out" as you say, and the FWL can continue its growth while watching everyone else tear each other apart.
I really, really like that. That's good stuff, Shades.
Quote:
they could provide a moderate amount of naval support (freed by batchalls from the Clan front) to help reduce Sol's system defenses. In fact, a Kyushu with its onboard Mech regiment and an escort or two, sounds like a good Combine representative in the actual assault on Terra...
That's good. Yes, I think the Combine could free that much aid - but why would it overreach beyond what's needed to secure the Lyon's Thumb?

Maybe cash/tech offers from Terra, or is there something a little more elaborate than bribery that could motivate the Combine?

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
That depends largely on Fake Tommy, and his willingness to risk exposing himself and the long-running plot. That is a trump that either ComStar or WoB could hold over his head, to either stay out of the conflict or join it. He also has to deal with the FWL's internal politics; it's doubtful that the FWL's other power players would be willing to jump into a potential firestorm over an issue that could be seen as none of the FWL's business. Fake Tommy is really damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, but at the same time, there is freedom in that kind of position, freedom which could allow Fake Tommy's rift with WoB to manifest itself. Imagine this scenario: the issue of Terra and the WoB comes before the Star League Council, and instead of voting for it or vetoing it, Fake Tommy ABSTAINS. This non-vote sends a quiet signal that he is willing to play the political game with ComStar (who will protect him accordingly), the Cappies (as a foreign relations step) and the Star League (who can interpret his non-vote as "disapproval, but cooperative"). Now it's the Blakists' necks on the line, Fake Tommy wins by being "left out" as you say, and the FWL can continue its growth while watching everyone else tear each other apart.
I really, really like that. That's good stuff, Shades.
Thanks.
Quote:
Quote:
they could provide a moderate amount of naval support (freed by batchalls from the Clan front) to help reduce Sol's system defenses. In fact, a Kyushu with its onboard Mech regiment and an escort or two, sounds like a good Combine representative in the actual assault on Terra...
That's good. Yes, I think the Combine could free that much aid - but why would it overreach beyond what's needed to secure the Lyon's Thumb?

Maybe cash/tech offers from Terra, or is there something a little more elaborate than bribery that could motivate the Combine?
How about a prime seat at the table when it comes time to divvy up the spoils? Think of how Russia declared war on Japan when WW2 was already functionally over...the same idea applies. Or more politically, how about a stronger position as one of the Star League's "senior" members, with commitment to the Star League demonstrated by being one of the "liberators" of Terra? That point is more abstract, since all members are nominally equal, but it could have some subtle yet important effects in the Council and at negotiating tables...fits the Japanese business mentality of the Combine perfectly.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:41 pm 
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How about a prime seat at the table when it comes time to divvy up the spoils?
What remaining spoils are there? The Capellans are gobbling up the Chaos March but for a handful of worlds left to the Terrans; the Combine gets the Thumb.

A share of control of HPG networks, perhaps some of WoB's businesses?
Quote:
Or more politically, how about a stronger position as one of the Star League's "senior" members, with commitment to the Star League demonstrated by being one of the "liberators" of Terra? That point is more abstract, since all members are nominally equal, but it could have some subtle yet important effects in the Council and at negotiating tables...fits the Japanese business mentality of the Combine perfectly.
(Partial) control of the Star League HPG network, or perhaps building some components for it, would give the Combine more clout in the Star League.

Or, hey, how about an endorsement that the Terrans will back the Combine in recovering more worlds lost to the Clans before aiding the Lyrans? That 3067 Truce termination is coming up soon after Terra's liberation, and Terra would really be hitting its stride in military production. It'd have a lot of sway in military matters.

This, by the way, points toward three more post-Liberation events:

1) WoB hunting. If you stick with my outline, Terrans will be real interested in finding out where some of WoB's toys and super-soldiers came from (i.e., the Hidden worlds) before that bites Earth in the ass. In addition, WoB has a huge number of businesses in the FWL that might be seized in court, leaving a bunch of True Believers with no real assets to their names.

Which, incidentally, might be dealt with by robbing WoB of its True Believers: create a Reformed Church of Blake on Terra where the true believers can worship 'til their hearts' content (and firmly under the eye and thumb of the Protectorate), but without endorsing the violence of WoB. A lot of those WoB supports were peace-love-n-flowers types that fled "meanie Comstar" when it renounced Blake's words. Give them a new ideological shelter, so WoB loses that pool of manpower.

This is sort of a sideshow but for attacks on the Five, like a repeat of the battle at Odessa.

2) Clan hunting. BattleTech gets boring when the shooting stops, and there's still the unresolved matter of the Clan invasion. While the Great Refusal notionally repudiated the Invasion, the Clans are getting itchy as 3067 approaches. The Clans held off for various reasons as the Jihad erupted and they had their internal disputes, but now they're facing an ongoing Star League that is, itself, now ready to focus on external matters.

Even if Terra does back the Combine and the Bears are first on the list, there's the question of how the Combine handles "liberation" of FRR worlds. The Bears would make an interesting first choice because they are entirely invested in the Inner Sphere - no homeworlds invasion would be needed to end the Bear threat. On the other hand, they're pretty tough. The Smoke Jaguars were not allowed to recover from Tukayyid.

3) Comstar. Focht did all sorts of things that made Comstar a "good guy," but it still has a bad track record before the Schism. After the Liberation, Terra should be aware Comstar-ROM is laden with WoB sympathizers thanks to acquiring various Comstar/WoB archives. Terra may also be motivated to seize control of Comstar for other reasons, too - with the smallest number of planets and no immediate chance to promote a First Lord, gaining control of the HPG network would give Terra useful clout in the Star League.

Terra also has a claim to the HPG network: it's a new, neutral (snicker) power unlike biased Comstar and its ComGuards.

Speaking of the ComGuards, Comstar has its origins in the old Star League and Terran Hegemony. Isn't it about time to get that non-Star League, freelancing corporate army back under Star League control? The ComGuards would make a helluva injection for the SLDF.

There's a good couple of decades of fun to fill out for the timeline.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:52 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Well then IvanR, you have your opinion on the matter and the rest of us have ours. Enjoy yours and I am sure we will enjoy ours.
Karagin, your version of the Jihad is so out of date that what you're posting is now essentially a fan version of the Jihad, not the canon one, even though you mean to refer to the canon Jihad.

If you don't update your facts (and IvanR is offering the correct information), then how can you criticize the writers and the Jihad timeline if you're not even addressing the real Jihad? :)
Update them with what? The jibberish that was in the books currently out on the Jihad? I have yet to see a source book that lists things like the older pre-Jihad sourcebooks would do, giving fact versus the reporter stories.

Nothing has been shown to explain the money trail, nor the man power trail or the factories or really anything. How about we get a book that does all of that. I have the damn book he talks about, the one that combines all of the other ones, and it was really nothing new. It did not explain anything in the cut and dry here is how it was done manner that leaves all doubt aside. Show where to find that info and I will revise my info.

And for the record Cray and IvanR, I have read the books, and I was not impressed with format or style. I am after the hard facts. I don't see what is so hard for TPTB to give us the answers and whys and what for of things. Save the silly reporter texts and such for the novels.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 2:14 am 
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Seeing as how there where no novels at the time they committed to the format . . .

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:52 am 
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Since some say all the WoB needed to do anything was to hold Terra, how would ComStar and the SLDF go about cutting into supplies and other items that the WoB can't get from holding Terra? Certain weapons and supplies come from other places, and are not manufactured on Terra or one of the other planets in the Sol System...unless of course at some point ComStar had spent billions on space factories and other such industrial centers during their time in control of Terra.

Would an interdiction of the Terran system be effective or nor? Working with the idea that Sunny and his forces get through the defensives and manage to land, where on Terra would they land...what I am asking is where would it make since for them to land in order to secure the planet fast and keep the WoB forces off guard and guessing at their intentions?

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:32 am 
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I pretty much think one of the first targets would be Hilton Head to cut the head off. Then probably any place they feel they can hurt or disrupt their suply lines like Europe.

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