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No, it would not. Read my other recent post.

"However, the only canon number of jumpships (2000, per DS&JS) is low by an order of magnitude (at least) for the stated types and quantities of interstellar travel. There is WAY too much bulk shipping (grain, ores, oil, etc.) in CBT for 2000 jumpships to work."

The writers and line developers now dismiss the 2000 figure as being low by a factor of at least 10.
Unfortunately, that's contradicted by the canonical high incomes and high reported average levels of technology found in the Inner Sphere, even in 3025 (prior to the recovery of the Helm Core). Simply put, the Inner Sphere is too wealthy and too advanced to be truly bombed into the stone age.

The average Inner Sphere planet has sufficient technology (22nd-23rd Century) and wealth (average 6,000 to 10,000 House bills per year per person) in the depths of the Succession Wars to build a military industry from scratch with very little effort. The average planet will already have the automotive, computer, metalworking, chemical, and engineering resources needed to build a functional combined arms military.

Even starting from scratch, completely from scratch, the cost of fielding a few hundred tank regiments will not stretch the average Inner Sphere planet's coffers. The average planet may not have the technology to pound out BattleMechs and Aerospace Fighters, but fielding a capable combined arms force of tanks, conventional fighters, is not hard or expensive for the canon industry and canon wealth of the average Inner Sphere planet. I'd be happy to go over the math again, if you'd like.
It works out to 3 regiments on average. The references I'd want are currently on the down-and-out-CBT.com.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

BMcauliffe wrote the minimum wage is not for everyone, it is for employed people, they have wifes/husbands and children that dont work. and then there are unemployed people, and pensioners... so the average income is well below minimum wage if you relate it to the one trillion inhabitants. if you calculate the average pay to be 500 C-Bills/month and 9 non-workers per employed person you get to 50 C-Bills/person.

then part of tax-intake is for local needs on each planet, the same needs any state on earth has to pay for. the central government therefore gets only a fraction

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typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.

That's true. However, canon average incomes ARE averaged across the entire population of a House, including kids, pensioners, and the unemployed. So Brian's estimate based on minimum wages is still very conservative, since it's so far below the House average.
The average employed fraction of an industrialized nation is about 40-50%, not 10%.
While correct, this doesn't matter much when it comes to calculating the funds available for militaries. If the central House doesn't have it, then that means the planets are keeping it and, in aggregate, the planets have a load of money.

For example, using your figure of 50CB/person (1/200th the canon Lyran average), a typical Lyran planet has a total GDP of 150 billion CB. Based on the US example of taxes (i.e., low) and reversing the federal/state income (20% federal / 10% state in the US) so the planet got 20% of the GDP in taxes, that means the average Lyran planetary government is pulling in 30 billion CB in taxes. (Again, note that this figure is 1/200th the canon Lyran average.)

Again following the US example, the planetary defense department would get 20% of taxes, or 6 billion CB.

Yet again following the US spending example, the planetary defense department would spend about 25% of the budget on procurement annually: 1.5 billion CB, with the remainder covering wages, maintenance, bases, operations, etc. 1.5 billion a year will buy you a very nice military by canon standards. 150 assault mechs per year, for example. (Again, at 1/200th the canon Lyran average income.)

Looking at the larger picture, this means the Lyran Alliance federal goverment is getting 10 billion CB per year per planet from 350 planets - 3.5 trillion CB in total, with 700 billion for defense spending and 175 billion for procurement. Annually. At 1/200th the canon Lyran average income.

A quick look says that even with the minority percentage of the taxes, the Lyran centrla government can afford to purchase 210 regiments of 25 million CB assault mechs per year.

And that's all at 1/200th the canon Lyran average income figure of 10,000CB/year/person.

Even on such a restricted income, it should be pretty clear how a planet with no military industry can afford to quickly develop a military industry, too. It doesn't take many billions to build tank and fighter factories, plus the requisite military schools, from scratch.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

Well, the number of 2,000 JumpShips and 25,000 DropShips in 3025 actually works and tends to fit the size and style of the Inner Sphere in 3025. Remember that during the Fourth Succession Wars almost ALL trading of luxuries and the like ground to a halt. Interstellar trade STOPPED in the Federated Suns because they pulled out every JumpShip and DropShip they could to use them in the assault on Capellan space. That would not have happened if there 20,000 or more JumpShips.

Frankly, it is much easier to use the canon that says planets that couldn't support themselves died off during the Succession Wars, when the massive JumpShip fleets that made that possible died out. Every world can sustain itself. Granted, on some the choice of food is red, green, or yellow mush, but they can sustain themselves.

Interstellar trade is in luxury items, not in basic staples of life. Premium steak and stuff like that. The stuff that the rich eat. So in the small number of cases where canon says that all food is brought in from outside, it means all food that the RICH eat, since they don't want the red, green, or yellow mush.

Basically, as canon says, any planet that couldn't SURVIVE on its own resources died during the Succession Wars. Of course, as a certain parrot in Aladdin said, "you'd be surprised what you can live through."

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Militia numbers are not specified widely, because they tend to vary according to need and author fiat. Plus, it's really hard to pin down just how big a military machine some of these smaller powers and worlds could really support.

For example, Randis only has 8000ish people as of the last Periphery book. A population that small is problematic from a biological standpoint, let an economic standpoint. Assuming an average population demographic in age, health and whatnot, Randis could reasonably muster an infantry regiment equipped with rifles, "technicals" and other basic local weapons. But they wouldn't want to sustain that large a unit for long, or take any major casualties, because the overall population is so small that any significant loss from the military/working segment of their population would be hard on their economy. Now, if they wanted to maintain a full time infantry battalion as a core, and temporarily expand it as needed, that is more within their capabilities...

As for factories and whatnot, any planet that can make its own farming equipment can make at least basic wheeled AFV's, if not actual tanks. Setting up factories for ICE vehicles (or converting factories from building cars to tanks, as the US did in WW2) is not a big deal; in fact, I would think that most vehicle factories in the Battletech universe (and especially in the Periphery) are "dual use" in that regard. The factory churns out trucks to support the local economy, but a portion of the frames are kitted out as AFV's for the militia...

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Well, here's the problem: 2000 jumpships/25000 dropships doesn't fit the canon 3025 House sourcebook descriptions of trading in cheap, bulk commodities. Planets like New Avalon actively export low-cost, high bulk goods like grains to neighboring planets - per 3025 canon (read the Davion SB write-up of New Avalon). You find places exporting oil and iron ore across multiple jumps - in 3025 canon. You know, by the original authors of BT.

Now, if 3025 canon took pains to explain that only military units and high profit/low volume goods (like 25th century microchips and fusion engines) were shipped around the Inner Sphere, 2000 jumpships might work. But, no, you planets like Galax, Hesperus II, and Irian dependent on outside food sources and places like Okefenokee and the Mica Majority exporting low-cost mega-bulk goods.

Irian alone requires 1 million tons of food a day to meet its canon 3025 (Marik SB, pg163) description that it imports "most" (over 50%) of its food for 2 billion people (assuming they get a bare minimum 1kg of concentrated, dehydrated calories and vitamins). That's 29 Mammoths landing each day to deliver food, with a 15-day round trip to the jump point, and about 14-20 days round trip to the nearest habitable farming planet - 830 Mammoths and 415 Merchant jumpships tied up feeding a single planet. Assuming that Mammoths are used, of course, instead of the much more common Mules.

But there's other horrors of bulk shipping to be found. Okefeneokee (House Davion SB) has attracted the attention of Interstellar Star Petroleum because...why? It's got a small population of religious zealots who can't possibly use its vast reserves of oil. Earth in 2005 was using about 2,000 million TONS of oil per year, so what planet is going to seriously benefit from Okefenkokee's oil reserves? Its nearest neighbors (within 1 jump) have billions of inhabitants who much need gigatons of oil to be worthwhile. Even with ultra-conservation of oil needs, cutting oil demand to 1% of Earth's needs, an average FS planet might consume 20 million tons of oil - requiring shipping comparable to 20 times what Irian consumes in food. That's 16,000 Mammoths and 8,000 Merchant jumpships to feed a single planet's needs with Okefenokee's oil.

New Avalon is a "veritable breadbasket world, supplying food to systems throughout the Crucis Marsh..." how is that accomplished without thousands of jumpships? There's hundreds of billions of people in the Crucis March.
Quite the contrary, it's very easy with any number of jumpships - you just tie up the vast majority in the (silly) trade of critical bulk supplies like food.

It is thoroughly, depressingly established in 3025 canon (primarily the House and Periphery SBs) from BT's original writers that bulk goods are shipped. Those would dominate the vast bulk (pun intended) of shipping - when planets like Irian and Galax are individually demanding 25% of the jumpships supposedly in service (see below), you have to figure that number is wrong.

Instead, you're left with a picture where 90-99% of jumpships are involved in hauling the basic necessities to the few, non-independent planets that were worth saving despite the Succession Wars' drain on jumpships - Galax, for example, is the FS's hub of aerospace production, and its 1 billion people are worth a megaton a day of imported food. This, in turn, squeezes economically-critical goods (as opposed to survival-critical goods) onto a small fraction of available jumpships.

So, when the AFFS comes calling for merchant ships to make the 4th SW possible, it's going to bite into that small number of (a few hundred or so) jumpships hauling economically critical goods like fusion engines and microchips. Obviously, the AFFS won't starve Galax or the other worlds of the Crucis March of New Avalonian grain during the 4th SW, but those same worlds can make do without New Avalonian computers and fusion engines - even if it crashes their economies to be denied those economically-critical goods. They'll just have to live with their mush and dream for the days when they got their microchips from New Avalon.
Unfortunately, that's contradicted by too many early/3025 canon sources. Places like the Mica Majority were shipping crap bulk goods like iron ore to the FS in 3025. That's a commodity only worthwhile in terms of megatons.

I would be extremely happy if early canon said the only thing passing between star systems in BT were microchips, fusion engines, and battlemechs, at a million CB per jump per dropship. Unfortunately, the 3025 House/Periphery Sourcebooks established that grain, iron ore, and oil were popular interstellar goods, and those need shipping volumes in terms of gigatons. 2000 jumpships and 25,000 dropships (with the Mule being the average example) just do not match canon.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

The answer to this dilemma is obvious - alternate universes. i prefer cutting the population down to about 7.5 billion, Inner Sphere wide. Chalk it up to lots of disease, death & destruction, I mean this game is about war after all.

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[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-navy.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-seabees.gif[/img]

There ya go.
I've found a cut down to about 10-20 billion per House works, too. Leave the capital planets with several billion edjumakated tax payers and 300-500 planets of illiterate serfs to defend, play up the feudal system, and the canon militaries start to make sense.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

Hence the necessity for those megafreighters, Cray?

I guess it's time for a non-canon counter-example...

In my Veiled Republic, there are seven major worlds (eight if you count the Goliath Scorpions) with a total population of something between 10 and 12 billion people. Of those worlds, only Bocage is dependent to any extent on food imports, and sustaining Bocage is not a problem since food is a primary export of at least three Republic worlds. The Republic's other six worlds are at least self sustaining in food production and local industry, and all produce exports of some kind. It's a very intra-active and self-sustaining economy, supported by a network of megafreighters for bulk shipping, and mercantile jumpships for the more routine loads.

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Absolutely. Megafreighters and orbital elevators.
Sounds entirely reasonable.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

[tries to remember the last time someone said "Beanstalk" onto CBTers at large]

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[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

The problem isn't the beanstalk. It's when the giant at the top falls...

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

You see the problem, then . . .

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[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

Well, as I said I take the idea that when the the sourcebooks said that planets that died off because they starved, that planets with 1 million or 1 billion people became planets of 100k people because the masses starved out, the sourcebooks weren't kidding.

Yes, some planetary writeups say that they import food. In fact, I'd say that most planets import at least SOME food. A thousand tons of frozen steaks will go a long way for a noble family that can afford to import them after all.

Some planets grow really nice wheat, or really good fish, or really good venison. All of these are shipped to the rich who can afford interstellar transport.

All other food is produced on each planet, even if it is just blue, green, or red mush "grown" in agrodomes. You know...those that survived the Succession Wars. Of course, it might just be recycled....well....you know what all a closed system CAN recycle if it needs to.

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Cray, have you ever asked what were writers of DS&JS smoking when they typed those numbers?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Whoever wrote that book is long gone . . .

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[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

I generally accept that, too. I think the going figure for the Inner Sphere is something like 250 lost planets in the Succession Wars.
Certainly. Luxuries make sense, and when you shut down luxury trade, you get economic effects like the Davion 4th SW meltdown.

However, there are still canon examples of very populous planets that import *most* of their food, which means megatons per day, and that's without touching the trade in inexpensive commodities that only make sense at the megaton and gigaton levels, like iron ore and oil.

Now, if you're selectively picking which bits of canon you stick to - i.e., creating an alternate history...well, I have nothing more to say (except to offer my examples of alternate histories with limited interstellar travel ). But in canon, there's far too much bulk shipping of low cost goods for 2000 jumpships to get the job done.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

I guess its just that I don't BUY all the bulk shipping.

The canon has always been that JumpShips and DropShips (and heck BattleMechs too) are rare and hard to come by if you don't have them already.

But as you noted there ARE cases where they say that entire worlds get all of their food from off planet. The two ideas just DON'T jive and one of them HAS to be wrong. Period. End of Line.

I make the assumption that the people (ComStar in most cases) that wrote stuff like that are living in their gilded halls and think the only people that matter are the people who can change things. After all, those are the only ones they have any reason to fear. Old ComStar thinking here. So it is easy for me to take the worlds that say "all of the food for the peoples comes from outside" and tweak it to being "all the food for the important peoples comes from outside" and considering just how few megarich there are compared to the teaming masses....well...that REALLY cuts down the trade.

That it maintains the idea of high technology being rare that has always been a part of BattleTech just makes it feel more right.

BTW, this IS the idea I use for the Human Sphere. Trade is luxuries, while each planet makes do with what they have. If they couldn't, they died just like canon says happened to worlds that couldn't.

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Cray answered most of your points, but I will answer that I specifically was talking about only the House piece by refering to the "Federal Budget".

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This is the best terrain I have seen all day!

I agree. And then there's the repleat examples of other bulk shipping - again, I point to oil and iron ore, which are should never move between the stars until shipping is as cheap as freight train passage.

Beyond bulk transport, there all the free traders in the Periphery and the Inner Sphere. Those should not exist in a setting of very rare jumpships. The first family-owned, independent tramp freighter that passed through my House when I have, like, 400 jumpships to maintain all interstellar passage is going to be paid a visit by Mr. Delta Force and Mrs. Prize Crew.

The compromise being used currently is that shipping is somewhat more common than ComStar claimed in DS&JS (and, fortunately, never repeated), but that the majority of jumpships are tightly bound in hauling critical goods - feeding the critical factory worlds, moving the key technological goods, etc. There's only a fringe population of jumpships that are not tied down in those operations and available for mercs, free traders, and so on. That last, non-survival critical fringe is the part that Houses may occasionally impress to government service and, in doing so, strangle a House's economy by holding up the flow of luxuries and goods not needed for survival.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

But that's still gonna cost some... say few billions in year from coffers of Great House. That's one expense not yet mentioned in economy, though I'm not sure does it alone keep militaries in low numbers.

Becouse strength of planet militias aren't specified accurately, we can assume that those make majority of armed forces and thus draw more money than regular front line combat regiments and RCTs.

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

I would imagine that small jumpships, like Scouts and Merchants, are actually not all that uncommon. They are relatively cheap and their small size makes them easy to build and maintain with fairly small and common (i.e. large dropship sized) dock facilities. I seem to recall reading someplace that the Merchant is the most common jumpship in the Inner Sphere, and I would imagine that a Merchant carrying a pair of Mules might be the most common free trader in the space lanes...

The larger jumpships, on the other hand, are relatively rare, and increasingly so with size. You can still occasionally find a Star Lord in private use, but practically all the Monoliths are in the hands of the Houses...

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Anything with a numerical cost of less than "100 trillion CB" is not going to daunt a House's budget.
Yes, they are specified accurately. "Hot Spots" (FASA 1679) provided tables for generating militias. Most frequently seen (7 on 2D6) compositions from the Hot Spots tables:

Small Planetary Garrison (deep interior worlds or regular Periphery worlds)

3025 technology
Green experience level
Equipment in good repair
1 BattleMech company (2 light lances, one medium lance)
2 Light Armor companies
2 lances of light conventional fighters
2 battalions of foot infantry support, usually equipped with SMGs

Medium Planetary Garrison (near-border worlds, but more than two jumps from enemy space)

3025 technology
Green experience level
Equipment in good repair
Two BattleMech companies (1 light company, 1 heavy company)
2 Medium Armor companies
2 lances of medium conventional fighters
2 battalions of foot infantry support with SMGs

Large Planetary Garrison (on border worlds - 2 or fewer jumps from enemy space, and highly populated interior worlds)

3025 technology
Green experience level
Equipment in good repair
1 BattleMech battalion (3 light companies, 3 medium companies, 3 heavy companies)
2 companies medium armor, 1 company heavy armor
3 lances of medium conventional fighters
1 regiment of mechanized infantry support, equipped with SMGs.

The "3 regiment" approximation is overkill.

_________________
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

As an extrapolation of those militia generation rules, you can alter some things appropriate to the world and tech level.

For example, a small world (Randis is 8000 people) may not be able to support even a Small Planetary Garrison. As listed, that force would represent a notable percentage of a small world's population, taken from of the military-eligible (read: working) segment of society. That could be a big hit on a small world's economy. So when designing a world's militia, think about the world's population and what it could reasonably support...

Another point is that not every world has Mechs, especially in the Periphery. So you could substitute armor or other units for them.

Conversely, a small world might WANT to have Mechs, because Mech units need fewer people than conventional units. A Mech company, even with tech support, might well have fewer bodies than an infantry platoon...

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

And when that happened, all free shipping in that House would never return, causing that House to effectively shoot themselves in the foot as far as ever getting anybody to take anything into their space. Heck, even the nobles would scream bloody murder at that, since those free traders are what is bringing them their luxuries.

It would never fly and the first person to try it would be fired, impeached, or just plain shot by the first planetary noble that gets a hole of him.

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

No it's not. Can we please drop the idea that a few units can take and hold a world...it was a silly and lame idea back when Andrews had it in the GDL books and it's even lamer now with all the new weapons and tech running around.

This is the kind of crap that takes away from universe having a solid footing, how about Retconning that out of the game...

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]

So it looks like my idea of the Renfro Militia being a reinforced regiment of infantry and armor for a world of about 500K people wasn't that far off base. They just lacked the Mechs, so they hired the Concrete Dragons...

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Yeah, it would stick: There's a War On, Man!

'Sides: House Lords have better secret police then the yokels . . .

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[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

War is no excuse for anybody to hijack my shipment of Tharkad Deer Hides.

I've got some important buses that need their seats covered.

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

DS&JS says most common JumpShip is Invader.

House Marik details militia of three planets in 3025 following:
Inner Sphere Atlas gives following description of New Assam:
Can you say: conflict of information?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Remember the impressment of jumpships to government service in the 4th SW?

When a nation of 300 to 500 planets has 400 ships of miniscule freight capacity to stay united and fight its wars, there isn't going to be any free shipping to begin with.

When you limit the BT setting to only 2000 jumpships, that's not a time or place to let any Tom, Dick, or Harry itinerant trader own a family-inherited jumpship. What happens when you need to make critical shipments and find one of your precious few jumpships has gone wandering off in the Periphery to market iron ore, fresh water and plastic beads, or is now contracted by a merc unit with 1 Leopard and 3 half-functional battlemechs? You can't let nearly 1% of your shipping capacity get distracted by little crap like that.

The impressment of jumpships to government service seen periodically through the Succession Wars (e.g., Davion 4th SW) should be the norm, not the exception. You'd have elite, psychologically-groomed national crews (akin to modern boomer crews) exhibiting extreme loyalty to the government.

And the shipyards...sure, free jumpships can run to the Periphery to escape impressment, but the shipyards are stuck. Once production bottoms out and you've only got 2000 jumpships throughout the whole Inner Sphere, you better believe every scrap of jumpship production would be going into the House military and government fleet. There won't be any free traders left for lack of spare parts and new jumpships on the open market.

No government in a 2000-jumpship BT setting can stand to cripple its interstellar transportation by letting new-build jumpships go into the hands of some civilian intent on running rich people to Kooken's Pleasure Pit or something similarly frivolous like that. The "free trader" would've died out in the 1st or 2nd SW if there were only 2000 jumpships. They'd never get the spare parts or new ships to keep their population sustained - the government would be getting everything if there were just 2000 jumpships.
That is my point: BT does a poor job of matching military sizes to planetary populations. Basically, IS planets just have about 3 regiments per planet. You gave a decent example of that average with your New Assam, Oriente, and Andurien citations.
I'd love to. That's why I make alternate histories with hundreds and thousands of regiments of militia troops per world.

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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

Oh I agree to a point.

It WOULD happen where the government basically says "take this there" and the JumpShip would do it. That happens. But actually STEALING the JumpShip? No. Any state that started doing that would suddenly see all independent traffic to their territory disappear, essentially cutting them off from exterior trade unless they sent their OWN ships to do it. And of course then they could be stolen BACK.

And like I said, the nobles want free trade so they can get their Tharkad deer hides, the Branth hides, the amazing tasting frozen steaks from Fumbuck Timbuktuk or wherever. The nobles would up and revolt if their leader had the idiocy to piss off the people carrying THEIR stuff and keeping them from getting it. Remember that the House leaders only rule as long as the other nobles don't stand up and off them. They just wouldn't stand for something like that. War is one thing. But there is no reason that should stop one from eating well.

Your point is valid though. NO new JumpShips would be going to independents. All new construction would be going to the Houses, and the independents make do with what they have. Basically, all family-owned JumpShips are hundreds of years old, held together with spit and bailing wire, and a generous portion of duct tape.

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
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[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

First off, "Fumbuck" is going to become a planet in one of my fictions someplace...

Second, agreed that NEW jumpships aren't going to independents unless said independents are VERY wealthy and well connected. But I would imagine that used jumpships get handed down into the independent market on a semi-regular basis, or all the free traders and merc units with jumpships and so on wouldn't be possible.

HOW those jumpships got handed down could be a story in itself. The Shadows got their first jumpship by capturing it from pirates, who had hijacked it from a merchant, who had won it in a poker game from another merchant, who...eh, you get the point.

As for independently owned jumpships: given the value of jump transportation, and the informal "don't shoot jumpships" shield, I would imagine that being an independent jumpship captain who rents out your ship could be a pretty lucrative business. That has some potential as the start of a MW3 campaign...

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

How 'isolated' from it all Spacers are is one of the things glossed over . . .

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[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

Scout class jumpships are actually very rare and all but reserved for military purposes

Merchants and Invaders make up the bulk of the publisly owned shipping... Extra collars can be used to transport dropships willing to purchase transport.

I will say that Cray is probably right in that the numbers of Jumpships and Dropships cited in Dropships and Jumpships (vice versa?) is in direct contradiction of the numbers needed to make the economies and commerce requirements function at even the limited levels that the House Sourcebooks contemporary to DS&JS have them functioning at.

The only way that i see the to reconcile the canon populations with the size of the canon Militaries (the canon is only rarely concerned with the planetary and below militia instead focusing on the military forces of the march level and above) is detailed below... roughly the near feudal structure of the governments (dis)functioning as an overlay over the planetary economies that you see in the books & novels.

Canon Materiel (CBT Companion) indicates that an average noble spends 20% of their government's income on police and military forces, pays 20% to higher levels of government, spends 55% on various parts of the government's budget (including any required bluk foods purchasing), retains 5% of the governments income as the nobles personal income, perhapse this is as a salary for the noble when he does not control the government or used for some other governmental function.

HDSB places the Ministry of Ways & Means in general and the Chancellery of the Exchequer in particular as collecting the Federal / National Taxes (leaving planetary taxes and below in the hands of the planetary or regional Noble or Non-Noble Government) considering the information from the Companion, this could be as little as 20% of the income of the top level of government on each world, system, or minor duchy.

The major Duchies (the March Lords) function as cogs in the Federal Government while not being responsible for collecting the Federal Taxes from their Marches, The March Governments instead receive funds from their March's Sub-Minister (Ways & Means) of Regional Finance that were collected at the Federal Level by the Ministry of Ways and Means

With this, the Monies available at the Federal Level (including their subordinate March/Perfecture/Principality Governments) could be much lower than assumed by most.

Each minor noble or regional government (with or without noble control) may be giving 20% of its income (by means of taxation or mining rights) to the levels of government above, some of which eventually reaches the Planetary and Federal Layers of government... While no individual or noble would be taxed twice under this system, this could serve to reduce the monies available at the planetary and federal levels to amounts that would fit the canon materiel, especially considering that Police and Military Personnel, Procurement & Maintenence would be coming out of the 20% allocated for Security at each level.

Granted, Federal Monies collected by the Chancellery of the Exchequer could be as much as 20% of what ever percentage of the tax base that the Planetary Government collects.

The other extreme is that each city, company or 1000 km streach of land has its own government that gives 20% of its income to the Continental Government, that gives 20% of its income to the Planetary Government, that gives 20% of its income to the Systems Government that gives 20% to the Federal Government.

Both of these extremes (a Single Government for an entire system or Regional Governments Squabbeling for scraps) are loosly supported by the Canon, and its left up to you to determine how you want any worlds set up that you use in your games.

The near total lack of coverage has led to many (even among a majority of the current writers) using terms like FASAnomics and borrowing an ecomic phrase first made popular in the 80's to liken the economics of the BattleTech Universe to Voodoo.

All that may amount to a way to drastically shrink the cash available to a particular level of government, but a problem remains: there's a still a lot of cash available in total, and since the militia and "federal" militaries are known to be quite small, there still ends up being a huge gap between available taxes and military sizes.

Two mathematical examples:

1) Government #1 has a single layer of government for 1 billion people, who in turn have an average income of 5000CB. The government taxes at 20%, so it collects 1 trillion CB. It spends 20% on security (police and military), so it has 200 billion CB for security.

2) Government #2 has an identical population, income, and tax rate at the lowest level of taxes. The difference is, Government #2 is a feudal government with a multitude of layers: it starts at baronetcies, goes to barons, counts, viscounts, marquesses, dukes, arch dukes, ultra-dukes, princes, arch princes, and Da King, for a total of 10 layers.

Government #2's baronetcies are tiny little things, each ruling only 1000 people, and they're the first stage in the tax collection process, claiming 20% of their fief's income as taxes. What's the total tax base there? Well, each baronetcy only has (1000 people x 5000CB/person/year) total income, which works out to 1 million CB in taxes. The total taxes collected would be the number of baronetcies (1 billion / 1000 = 1 million) x 1 million CB/year: 1 trillion CB, same as Government #1's total tax base (which shouldn't be surprising). The baronetcies send 20% of their taxes to the baronies (200 billion), then spend 20% more on security (200 billion).

The baronies are now the recipients of 200 billion in taxes and send 20% to the counties (40 billion CB), and spend 20% on taxes (40 billion CB). Already you should see that total security expenditures are higher than government #1.

The counties get 40 billion, leaving 8 billion for security at the county level.
The viscounties get 8 billion, leaving 1.6 billion for security.
The marquessies (?) get 1.6 billion, leaving 320 million for security.
The duchies get 320 million, leaving 64 million for security.
The archdukes get 64 million, leaving 12.8 million for security.
The...well, the higher layers of feudal government get pretty trivial on the larger scale of things.

Each individual region might not have a lot of security money - e.g., 200,000CB per baronetcy - in total, there's a lot of cash. When you add up the various levels of government in government #2, you end up with 250 billion CB for security. And that isn't going to be diced up so finely as at the baronetcy scale because, again, most BT planets aren't feudal.

What you should have is some big honking militaries at the planetary and interstellar levels, and those don't exist. Per Hot Spots, a planet's lucky to have a couple of regiments. Per the House Marik Handbook, 3 regiments per planet is doing good. The gap still exists even when you dice up the budgets into many little layers of government.

_________________
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly

"Going bonkers from EI or DNI is pushing it. I mean how many Crusaders or Super Wobbies are sane to begin with...." --RockJock01

Here we go again.

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Just 3 regiments on whole planet!!?

Damn! Numbers have sinked BIG time since original sourcebook and its PDF version. As I had quoted in my previous post, one of the smallest (if not the smallest) provincial/militia forces is New Assam's 3 infantry regiments, artillery company and 2 Wolverines. This is just on one continent of 4 million people on planet which has total population of 625 millions.

Did Jihad hit FWL THAT bad?

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

i guess the numbers are kept as low as possible beause this is a boardgame, in wich a decisive battle could be fought on a board in a few hours. this is a clear case of playability over realism.

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typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.

Too many people get stuck on the idea that what is happening on the table is ALL that is happening. If you're playing a lance on lance raid in 3025, that MIGHT be true. But I have played through several 3060's campaigns that pitted entire Jade Falcon Clusters against a full Lyran RCT. In such campaigns, where you have major units battling for the control of entire planets, the battles on the table are just highlights or key moments from the larger action...snapshots, if you will.

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Point, BUT the attitude or mind set that you mention IS what the writers show and thus has become the way things are done. Four mechs can not control a planet nor can a signal regiment, not effectively. Convince the writers to change their way writing up forces on a planet etc...and the folks will lose the idea as well.

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]

For the most part we only discuss military forces when talking about controlling a planet. But what about paramilitray forces like police? Police are really little more than light infantry but they do help hold down territory. They won't be much beyond a speed bump during an invasion but they do keep the population under control.

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the issue that seems to be unadressed up to now is that the number of ships(i´ll be using this term to avoid DS+JS) would have changed over time.

first phase: from the introduction of interstellar transport to the end of the starleague:

the number of ships would grow with the number of systems explored, a lot of newlysettled worlds that are simply to young to be self-sufficient in all of their needs is supported by a relatively vast number of ships, as this worlds are far away at the outer limits of space. transport is cheap and trade of even medium-priced goods makes sense.

second phase:from the end of the starleague to the moment the madness of destruction of shipyards etc. is realised:

there is a lot of destruction of shipyards and part-factorys. ships are lost to battledamage and old age, some are simply getting mothballed because there are not enough spareparts.others have to be scavanged to keep some going.replacements are only trickling from shipyards. transport is more and more expensive and only important and extremly valuable goods could be transported as the number of functioning ships is steadily reduced. remote worlds would loose contact and population would adjust to self-sufficiency level almost everywhere. import-dependent productions are steadily reduced.

third phase: from the moment the madness of destruction of shipyards etc. is realised to the moment when the memory-cores are found and lostech is rediscovered:

in this phase the number of ships would be almost constant as the existing shipyards are respected. the loss of ships to age and lack of spareparts is compensated by extreme efforts to keep the existing shipyards producing and the ships going as long as possible. transport still is expensive and diffficult to obtain. import-dependent production is only possible for extremely valuable goods.

fourth phase: from the rediscovery of the lostech to (???):

shipyards and part-factorys are repaired and production increased, the number of functioning ships raises as not only more are produced, but also mothballed ships are repaired and taken into service again. the price of transportation slowly falls. import-dependent production is slowly growing again. some planets populations could slowly grow above self-sufficiency level.

fifth phase: from (???) to the begin of the jihad: there is an equilibrium between the production and los of ships, between transportation needs and price.

sixth phase: the jihad, i dont know enough about the jihad to really coment on it but i suspect it would be almost like phase two, only that the technology to rebuild the shipyards/factorys is not lost.

seventh phase: a repetition of fourth phase after the jihad. losses are slowly compensated. again i don´t know enough to really comment on this.

eights phase: ??? i have no idea, perhaps another equilibrium.

the numbers given in canon may be exact or to small, but i suspect they relate to the end of phase two and the whole phase three. in this time the game was originally started with low-tech solutions that where later known as "level 1". the trade and production would be very low in this time and most factorys would use on-planet resources for their production. the transportation of food etc. would be pretty low in phase three

a lot of people would emigrate from worlds that couldn´t support them to worlds that could during phase two .
maybe this emigration works as the transports bring food etc. to a world and then would have to return empty if they don´t take passengers, the worlds they would travel to would be the worlds that produce the food etc., this might also be subsidized by the government.

the idea of free traders: it has been said that free traders get used ships from the governments when they seem to be too old for government use. i´d say that the payment of this ships would include not only annual payments but also the right of the government to use the ships when they are needed, for whatever reason. the owner would then be compensated in money or a reduction of debt. this would keep the governments ability high, but the cost low.

mercenary units with own transport: in times when transportation is low and expensive it would happen that a merc-unit takes a garrison-contract and uses its ships to make extra profit during the time they are not needed. this way the unit could afford otherwise unaffordable transport, and might make more money than with its usual work.

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typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.

In source material (Total Warfare included) is said that farming equipment can be hundreds of years old and farmers can have more nonfunctional machinery than working ones. So is farming equipment really produced on those planets?

Oldest piece of equipment my father has still in use, is combine harvester with some 25 years of age. He is going to replace it in near future. Machine used to harvest potatoes is from this millennia and it did cost some 400k €uros. Warehouses have surveillance equipment based on computer technology that can control cooling machinery to adjust temperatures and store readings. This is new and high-tech stuff compared to what we have read from BT source material. When compared to most advanced equipment in Finland now... about average, maybe below.

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]

Could you give us a page number or two where you go this from please?

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]

First off, if that statement has been made, it is completely wrong and should be disregarded in any sort of realistic scenario.

Second, while farming equipment can certainly be decades old, many of these little farming planets in the Battletech universe have been colonized for literally centuries. Some of them pre-date the Star League. I don't care what canon fiction says, there is no way that farm equipment is going to last that long. They HAVE to be getting new equipment from somewhere. Local production of basic equipment is the sensible source, because it wouldn't be profitable to import those things.

Third, I dislike how Battletech seems to promote the idea that all this ancient equipment is still running on original parts. I am sure that there are many improvements in materials, maintenance and corrosion control between now and the time of Battletech, but you can't make me believe that (for example) those old Star League warships have more than a few original parts left in them. FWLS Olympic might look like the same ship on the outside, but its components from the drives to the hull plates and everything in between have probably all been repeatedly replaced over time, just due to the natural wear and tear, corrosion and whatnot. The same goes for old Mechs, old farm equipment or whatever...

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it.

Yes, a lot of cash in circulation, but extremely small chunks... also, we see the Militia forces, but what about the police forces? I suppose that fire departments would also fall under "Security" the definition in the books are left rather brod.. actually... the definition of security isn't broad... its rather, well... "undefined"

How do the House Handbooks contradict the CBT Companion?

Does it give a different percentage for
"State Taxes" Taxes to the levels of Government Above?
No, not delt with in the House Handbooks becase 20% of the Governments income sent to the next level of government is a good average... while we can see that the noble's government pays taxes to the governments of higher nobles including any applicable federal governenment, it is left undefined enough that we do not know whither the commoners pay taxes directly to the federal and to the local noble (the equivelent of what we are used to in the United States with Paying taxes both to the state and the federal) or solely to the Local Noble who pays taxes up the chain.

Infastructure Spending? Again, as an average 15% of the governments spending going towards infastructure does not need to be reprised in every book that would remotely touch on the issue.

Importing Supplies from off the landhold? 20%
Staff Salaries? 20%
Defense & Security? 20%
Personal Income of the Landholder 5%

Already done in the core book, why reprise it when the average would not change?

heck, even the sizes of the Land Hold or regions that equivelent governments would cover were not reprised in the House Handbooks

The one thing that the Companion covered that the Handbooks modified is the Personal Income of the Noble and the Name of each degree of Nobility... and that could easily have to do with population and per capita income in the house...

The Average size of the landhold could conceivably have changed from house to house... but this was evidently not deemed worth inclusion in the book.

the Companion gives a skeleton frame work for the Interstellar & Local Nobility for the non-clan areas that the Handbooks give fleash to. The average that serves as a baseline for the player character's first year also serves as a good baseline for NPC's and what is the entire BattleTech universe but a population of a vast number of NPCs with the writers serving as the GMs?

The Companion gives a map in the broad strokes while the House Handbooks provide the detail and topography.

Or Rather, the Companion is an atlas... while The Handbook is a city map... I was going to say an ordnance survey... but we must admit that the Handbooks are still rather broad strokes with each house broken down into 3-5 regions and the average incomes of each level of nobility being listed for each region
Frequently, yes, however, the way you state it is that no world in Davion space has nobles below the top level of government. However, Even the United States, a republic or representative democracy (blurry)

has
County of Stafford
State of Virginia
United States
and, if the UN actually was able to collect taxes...

Thats 4 layers of Government right there

The only level of nobility that is specificly stated to not collect taxes for itself is the knight... and even then they could easily be serving as the higher nobles tax collectors and be recieving a salary from the higher noble... but that is beyond the scope...

And even then... Just because the Town of "No Where" and the County of " Too Blasted far from any place important enough to care about" do not have nobles... whos to say that No Where doesn't pay taxes to the county seat?

The Only place that comes even close to dealing with the Planetary Governments and below is the CBT Companion... even when the House Handbooks talk about "Regional" Governments a little reading shows that they are more concerned with PDZs, Districts, Marches, etc.
"Do not always"... True... however, its a good rule of thumb...
Certainly easier to express than 10% to the Baron, 5% to the Count, 4% to the Duke, 1% to the Prince

The Companion says "State Taxes" which is rather undefined.


Yes, there is...
but the lack of detail makes it rather hard to say unequivicably that there are not good excuses (other than "we want it that way") what you claim is broken, i claim is "insufficient detail to make a determination"

Heck, if the security forces have to pay technician, mechanic and medic salaries for the people that maintain the units (and other members of the logistics train) rather than having them covered under Landhold Salaries like the other civil servants, then that increases the cost of the security forces significantly
definately... higher percentage of the GDP going to Security forces... but also man power intensive and low military potential (pistols and shotguns are almost useless against battlemechs... and only slightly more useful against infantry) Police Forces could account for a significant portion of the regional security budget.

yup, and this is why the federal / national governments have such small militaries...

but the recurring topic is why the innersphere isnt flooded in infantry units...

Especially considerign that Steiner Citizens serve 5 year terms... they cannot all be slaving away as Accountants...
Sorry, its is steiner so i guess it is possible
true, most planets are not feudal... but that isn't to say that there will not be equiveelnts to modern day US counties or the CBT Companions Baronies... 1000 km seams to be a good break point for regions, and each zone of control will have its own security needs... and only rarely (well... ok, not so rarely) will these security needs include military forces... ) i would say a platoon of infantry, military transport, and a platoon or two of motorized rifle (or even ... pistol) infantry to represent the police forces how much would that be?

and then set it up so that the reporting ignores the police forces and reports the Militia units at each level.
Does Hot Spots cover the Police? The Fire Department, and any other things that could fall under the heading of security? and also remember that infantry is expensive and has little ROI in military strength .

These fall under Security... so they take up a significant portion of the budget that could go to the military forces

Yes, Farm Equipment may be hundereds of years old... but they undergo regular maintenence to keep them running as well... and reqular maintenence requires parts

The majority of Small arms and civillian vehicle factories are deemed beneeth the notice of the source books...

Heck... the very existance of "Sub-Machine Gun" "Rifle, Automatic" and the rest of the generic weapons in LosTech is good indication that local manufacture of fire arms is accomplished on a regular basis...

Combat Vehicles (Excluding armed SUV), AeroSpace Craft, Conventional AirCraft (EaSUV), BattleMechs, and BattleField Weapons will be detailed occasionally with a good number of small manufactories and garages... but the rest of the factories are only rarely spoken of as they have little strategic use... its safe to assume that each world is able to make the generic vehicles and weapons from the RPG books.

I do not think that any thing has ever even implied this....

the requirement for maintenence in the Mercenaries Handbook rules quite clearly contrindicates the possiblility of Battlemechs and other equipment existing in perpetuity.

From Total Warfare, see SIMPLE FARMER in pages 200-203 and BACK END OF NOWHERE in pages 276-287.

Something similar is written in Decision at Thunder Rift about Locust: century old and so many parts replaced that only original part left is serial number plate + some computer data (probably in replaced mass storage unit).

In Decision at Thunder Rift Sarghad can produce at least sub-machine guns (Rugan), but combat vehicles were imported by Carlyle's Commandos. In order to repair 'Mechs, many vehicles were stripped from their armor to be used in 'Mechs.

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

[url=http://www.mekwars.org][u]MekWars[/u][/url]