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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:18 am 
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Stratego
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http://www.economist.com/world/europe/d ... d=15514914

Skipping all of the political moments, this article is very telling in how other nations are not doing as well as they claim...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:57 pm 
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I'm sure the only questions raised in the parliments of Britain, Italy and and Spain is how come we didn't sell the Russians our Helo Carrier designs instead of the French.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:25 pm 
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This news has actually been out for a while, and I recall it being noted openly in the media that these ships could have been difference-makers for the Russians in their recent war with Georgia. Russia's neighbors, including Georgia, are understandably worried about Russia's intentions for these ships.

Side comment #1: It seems odd that the Russians are looking outside to buy amphibs. What happened to the big amphib fleet that the USSR had before the breakdown? Surely the Russians still have some of those ships. The Russians also still have the ability to build new ships. Seems kinda odd to me that they would be buying a Western ship instead of using their own.

Side comment #2: The fact that the Russians are looking outside for military hardware AT ALL speaks volumes about how things must be changing in the Russian military. It used to be that the USSR supplied the world, not the other way around, and the old Soviet military NEVER used foreign gear that I know about. Strange days indeed.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Stratego
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The article makes it clear that the Russian military industrial complex is not up to par and given that they are having issues keep ships running and other things as well as having supply issues with in the Army has to really think they would be more working on getting better at fixing their problems before they tackle new things. Their invasion of Georgia wasn't something to brag about either.

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Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

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The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:48 pm 
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Freedom Fighter
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1991 proved to the world that russian military hardware was no match for western military hardware. For years people had mentioned that everytime western-equipped forces stomped eastern bloc stuff, the excuse was that it was export equipment and low end versions at that.

Iraq had plenty of the latest stuff that could be had from russia, china, france, and south africa. they had a military that on paper and on the readyline looked mean and impressive as all hell.

It took 8 hours for "the west" to establish air dominance, 6 months of airstrikes to cover the deployment of our ground forces, and 100 hours to decimate what was at the time the 5th largest army on earth, and easily the biggest power in the region.

Reread that sentence. Western military took out the best that the east could put on the table easier than clantech against 3026 vehicles. Iraq's air defense network was made up of the best that could be had on the open market, INCLUDING soviet era gear, set up in a damn DESERT, and we still managed to knock it off line with apache gunships in the middle of the night, and then destroy most of their airforce on the ground. Without use of nuclear weapons, and without signifigant loss of life.

Russian history is a long tale of being INVADED by the west, their entire military doctrine is designed around defense in depth and attacking potential threats when an attack is perceived to be imminent... Iraq showed that using soviet hardware on the defensive is a losing proposition, let alone on an OFFENSIVE one...

Factor this in with their recent experiences with Chechnya and Georgia. Both operations supposed to be cakewalks... both disasters. Georgia was sopposed to execute far quicker than it did, as the russian generals comment "With these ships we could have done in 45 minutes what took 26 hours" shows.

Russia isn't dumb. they want to buy ships and electronics from the west and shoehorn them into their forces. Anyone with heavy industry can build a tank. It's all the nifty dodads that go inside that give them trouble. Expect to see t-80's and SP field guns with western electronics in the short term and in the long term for them to field a lot of customized civilian spec stuff with "nikon" and "sony" on it emulating our tech. Want IVIS in your tank? Iphone will eventualy have an ap for that.

On the flip side, remember what France did for Britian vis-a-vis the exocet and the Falklands conflict. I imagine these ships will not work as well in a conflict that france disaproves of...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Freedom Fighter
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ah i see this article MENTIONS the exocet missle thing too. better than the one linked on fark

even used something close to my verbage. wonder if the author surfs the comments on FARK...

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[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Got a link? 'Cause I ain't tracking that "did for" line you have about France 'n Britian . . .

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Freedom Fighter
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France provided frequency data and other tidbits on the specific blocks of exocets provided to the Argentinians towards the end of the fight, made 'em easier to jam. It also blocked sales of its missles to peru until after the conflict to ensure newer missiles didn't end up getting resold and used against the british. Some people i talk to speak of transponder codes to deactivate warheads, but that just reeks of bad movie plot to me. Realisticly, just jamming the end stage radar is enough to make an exocet uselessly inaccurate, and it's a LOT easier to do that if the manufacturer is working with you.

These shennanagins have made the chinese silkworm a popular weapon with people unpopular with the west.

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[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:06 pm 
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Supreme Mugwump
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i don't think transponder codes to deactivate(or cause self destruct) are that unlikely, usually it is possible to deactivate a missile by remote by the user isnt it? when the user can do that, why not the manufacturer(and his friends)?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:19 pm 
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The reverse is also true we sold the Argentinians 2 Type 42 Air Defense Destroyers which gave Argentinians all the knowledge they needed to exploit the weaknesses in the Sea Dart system and the Air Search Radars which had major problems with ground clutter. The fact that we lost 2 of this class (HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry) to air attack shows that they knew exactly how to penetrate our defenses.

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hmmm hooom


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Stratego
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The US has done the same thing over the years...I wasn't surprised as many, at how much old US equipment was found in the hands of the Iraqis, then when it was clear to many that we had support Saddam in the early 80s against Iran, a lot of folks wondered how many more nations had we supplied that we might end up fighting in the future?

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Well, whatever you do, don't buy bomb detectors from Britain.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... tml?hpt=C1

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Well not from ATSC or Global Technical.

Use a Dog instead the best chemical scanner can detect one part in a billion, while a typical dog can smell one part in a quadrillion!

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hmmm hooom


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Stratego
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Here is some food for thought, in the FBI and the Military the military working dogs out rank their handlers by normally two grades in rank. And if you are caught being cruel or mistreating a military working dog you can face an Article 15 hearing or worse. Found out about this while at Camp Bucca doing the detainee operations mission. And if a suspect shots and kills or wounds a working dog, they are treated as if they have shot a human officer, the dog gets primary care over the suspect, since they now have an officer/agent/service member down.

See, man's best friend is well taken care of.

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Freedom Fighter
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makes sense. Superiors usually do not bathe or pick up the poop of their subordinates...

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Big Nick, the Chainsaw Assassin
[i]Making Bad News Worse since 1980[/i]
[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Loki
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They also don't usually sit in your lap and lick your face....

;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Freedom Fighter
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Quote:
They also don't usually sit in your lap and lick your face....

;)
This guy would beg to differ

Bonus points if you know the quote I speak of... :wink:

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Big Nick, the Chainsaw Assassin
[i]Making Bad News Worse since 1980[/i]
[b]What... There's only ONE of you?[/b]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Antisocial General
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Quote:
They also don't usually sit in your lap and lick your face....

;)
Leave Bill Clinton out of this. No politics, remember? ;)

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Be careful what you wish for. I might let you have it. :evil:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:32 am 
Just a little "Thread Necromancy" concerning these two ships that the Russians are not getting. It is amazing how bad the Russian Navy has become since the Cold War ended. But I have seen speculation that the ships might be sold to another country. We shall see!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:53 pm 
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Lieutenant General
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Hopefully a NATO one Canada is looking for a future troop transport and the Royal Navy could do with a 2nd helo carrier so we have one to use when HMS Ocean is in refit.

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hmmm hooom


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:54 pm 
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Commanding General
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Canada was looking to get a ship similar to one of these, IIRC, do they may be a buyer

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:47 am 
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Thread necromancy once again, to announce that this deal has been officially cancelled. Russia is being paid back the money it had already invested, and France is keeping the ships for now. Don't be surprised if they end up being sold to someone like Britain or Canada.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/06/news/ru ... index.html

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:13 am 
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Supreme Mugwump
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or maybe they are sold to "someone" and then "somehow" end u guess where...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:09 pm 
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Lieutenant General
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Singapore is normally where arms are sold to that end up somewhere they shouldn't. Though a bit of a stretch for them. Might get sold as a "casino/hotel complex" to china.

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hmmm hooom


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:39 pm 
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Supreme Mugwump
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why? when they have a buyer who pays a little before singapore has to pay its debts that should not be a problem

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:37 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34335224

So in five years NATO will still be fighting these ships.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:25 am 
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Loki
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Oh, come on....

:stop: :smash:

You sound like you distrust our honorable friends and allies in Egypt...

:whisper:

:o

:bolt:

:nuke:

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Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible :blah:
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:37 pm 
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Commanding General
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M1s, F-16s and another American that we may one day in the distant future have to face off against.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:37 am 
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It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Looking at it from the perspective of the Muslim relationships involved, Egypt and Saudi (both secularly governed Sunni majority nations) have begun working together with an eye to keeping Iranian (Shia) and extremist (ISIS) influence out of the globally critical Suez region. Not only is it a matter of religion and nationalism, but they also know from history that if they don't keep that canal open and flowing, the rest of the world will, and the last thing they need is more "Crusader" intervention in the region. These two ships could help with that problem; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if these ships showed up off Yemen or Syria as soon as they are combat ready.

What Russia's role will be in this remains to be seen. Some people think that Egypt is acting as a third party for Russia, but that doesn't make sense on two counts. First, I've seen news articles that say the Russians are stripping their critical hardware (like computers) off the ships. It doesn't make sense for the Russians to strip their tech off the ships if this was a third party buy. Second, it wouldn't make economic sense for Egypt or Russia without other factors in the mix, which doesn't seem to be the overt case. So I don't think this is a third party sale, BUT...joint operations off Syria to prop up Russia's buddy Assad? Maybe with part-Russian crews? To give the Russians access to the ships, if not actual ownership? Ah, NOW we're getting somewhere...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:14 pm 
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Stratego
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The Russians have admitted to having advisors and techs and other personnel in Syria helping out Assad, so the whole thing doesn't sound far fetched.

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Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

[url]http://karagin12.livejournal.com/[/url]

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/mil-army.gif[/img]


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