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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:55 am 
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Colonel
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Anyone interested in doing up the AT2 stats for this unit.

It's an "Orbit to Ground Stealth Insertion Aircraft"

It carries 2 mechs under wing -

Its a nice kit-bash I've put together. I've already used it in several games already.

Unfortunately I'm doing the stats by pencil - caculator.......

Just for grins, this one is for Blasty McNasty...........he spotted it over on LotB and I thought it would be fun to show it to you guys...........

any takers ???/
Image
Image


Last edited by je from vegas on Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:27 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:58 am 
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Test Pilot
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Location: That flattop, up the well, overhead …
"Underwing" . . .

:o For reentry!?!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:03 am 
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Colonel
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Of Course,.............. they'll be coccooned in ablative foam. The foam burns off and the remmenants fall off in the slipstream.

As the airunit overflys the LZ, the mechs let go of the handholds and ignite JJs' and come in for a nice cushy landing...........

TADA !!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:05 am 
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Master Blaster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:28 am 
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The Last Boy Scout
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Great Kitbash. So do those Mechs have stats too?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:20 am 
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Loki
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I would say that they are locked in position inside something like a cocoon. And are released by the guys in the plane when they are over their position.

But dang...that is just...wiggy....I like it...:D

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:01 am 
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Freedom Fighter
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:roll: or it re-enters in the inverted position, then flips over as soon as the re-entry "flare" is something the mechs can handle

I have a similar concept usng a CAV mini as a smallcraft that carrys in 55 ton mechs as semi-internal payload. some kind of fork-tailed beastie that looks like a stuka and an A-10 had a love-child. It carries a dirvish/griffin/shadowhawk/wolverine/smaller humanoid mech and lands it in a maner safer than a drop-pod.

The small sized mini is considered to be mapscale of course.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:11 am 
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Freedom Fighter
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Location: Ft Lauderdale Florida
Since noone else has done any stats for it, here, took me five minutes.

I didn't see any readily aparent weapons mounts, so i put in some stuff to make it nasty at all ranges, and relatively heat efficient. It's cheap, can dogfight with the best of them, and other than the two RAC-5's will fit in any era....

Cheapish for an assault dropship too...
Code:
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  The Ship 
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       Aerodyne DropShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              2,500 tons
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       8
Maximum Thrust:    12
Armor Type:        Standard
Armament:          
    2 Rotary AC/5
    4 ER PPC
    6 LRM 20
   10 SRM 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  The Ship 
Mass:              2,500 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass  
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        1,300.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 8
      Maximum Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity: 25                                               312.50
Total Heat Sinks:    120 Single                                         55.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                     171.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                 19.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (44 days supply)                                          2.00
Armor Type:  Standard  (1,884 total armor pts)                         111.50
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                628
   Left/Right Wings:                 471/471
   Aft:                                 314

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Wing-mount mech hardpoint (2)                               100.00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1) with 1 door                                       200.00


Crew and Passengers:
      1 Officers (1 minimum)                                            10.00
      4 Crew (4 minimum)                                                28.00
      4 Gunners (4 minimum)                                             28.00

Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Rotary AC/5(120 rounds)  Nose     4(40)  4(40)     --     --   12     26.00
4 ER PPC                   Nose     4(40)  4(40)  4(40)     --   60     28.00
2 LRM 20(24 rounds)        L/RW     2(24)  2(24)  2(24)     --   24     48.00
3 SRM 6(30 rounds)         L/RW     2(24)     --     --     --   24     22.00
2 LRM 20(24 rounds)        Aft      2(24)  2(24)  2(24)     --   12     24.00
4 SRM 6(45 rounds)         Aft      3(32)     --     --     --   16     15.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              Heat: 148       2,500.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        385,634,448 C-Bills
Battle Value:      7,997
Cost per BV:       48,222.39
Weapon Value:      11,849 (Ratio = 1.48)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 172;  MRV = 89;  LRV = 25;  ERV = 0
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 48,372
                   (31,554 Structure, 13,450 Life Support, 3,368 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 19,350  (40% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      MP: 8,  Armor/Structure: 32 / 31
                   Damage PB/M/L: 18/13/9,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: DM;  Point Value: 80
                   Specials: if

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:22 am 
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General Know it All
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 1830
Location: Stafford , England
Nice drop Ship IIRC arn't the 2 'Mechs BA-3R Black Angel(s) that are from the Lord Of The Battlefield web shop (BV Traders) ?, I've seen no cannon stats for these though I'm sure that there are some up over on LOTB web site.
Dave.








(i really wish sometimes I could spell & remember to use the spell checker ! :P


Last edited by Davion_Boy on Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:02 am 
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Colonel
Colonel

Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:22 pm
Posts: 427
Yes, those are Battle Angels.............. They are a limited run mini designed by a BT player in England who frequents the LotB site.

They were made up by BV Traders here in the US.

They may still be available ??

The "offical stats" are on the LotB site.

I used those stats as a starting point to create my own.

For example, the mini on the left , I swapped out the standard arms for Kodie arms.

Definitely has a more agressive look to it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:55 am 
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Lieutenant, SG
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Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:29 am
Posts: 224
Interesting idea... That give some space for nasaty hot-drops :-)


Quote:
Claustrophobes need not apply.
As if the mech cockpit isn´t narrow enough to send claustrophobes running away :-P


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:02 pm 
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Colonel
Colonel

Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:22 pm
Posts: 427
ChainSA.................

Thanks, see how quick that was ............... :D :D

Can you give it less weapondry and more ECM/ECCM capabilities

I'm thinking of a quick in and out . If this aircraft has to fight then the mission is blown.

Think total stealth....................


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:27 pm 
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Lieutenant General
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Location: Somewhere between Morgues and Arc-Royal, fighting with the Wolves-in-Exile.
Hate to rain on your parade JE, but total stealth is kin to military intelligence or in otherwords its an oxymoron.

I am offering constructive criticism because I do find the concept fascinating and you obvioulsy put forth effort in the kit bash to make it work.

I'll start with that 'Tactical to Practical'-motiffe. Your creating what is essentially a 'Black-Ops' insertion craft thats primary focus is to insert a duo of Battlemechs behind enemy lines.

Presuming we are applying 'real world' applications to this machine (I know this is a FASA based game) you have several problems with the concept of a total-stealth craft. Presuming the system you are infiltration has no Ground to space sensors, or orbital sats, your design would work. However, upon entry into the system, that bright meteor-looking thing is going to attract attention. Also this BUFF (and I say it respectfully) has to have engines that will give off noise in atmosphere so again someone is going to hear that thing coming.

Stealth equipment as I understand its operation in real time world apps would be a major indicator that something is up. The "noise" generated by stealth equipment (ie Guardian ECM, Angle, Bloodhound) might cause some poor radar tech to notice his system going loopy and hit the "Gee I think we're being invaded" switch.

For the Battlemechs you propose to carry on drop pods. Is the ablative armor also stealth capable? And also are they going to match the contours of the vessel to create near-zero radar profile (Again I know this is a FASA game, folks)? When those pods drop, the radar is going to pick something up from the main craft because the contours of the vessel are going to change.

All in all I like the concept, but from reading the fluff texts, history, and such within the game. Stealth in and of itself is not as practical as flipping a switch. Someone with half a brain, and I'd daresy a quarter of a brain, will know something is up when the vehicle hits re-entry and engages its normal flight characteristics.

On a Scale of 1 - 10, I give the following:
Model Design - 9
Concept - 8
Cool Factor - 10
Kahoney Check - 10

Overal All Score: 9.25
:thumbsup:
:thewave:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:04 pm 
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Colonel
Colonel

Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:22 pm
Posts: 427
Seawolf................always willing to listen to anothers point of view.

questions in return??

Do "we" as a World Power have absolute 100% supreme knowledge of whats entering our own atmosphere 24-7-365??

Lets say this aircraft came down somewhere in the deep South Atlantic. Could anyone say what it was ???

I understand that the Space Shuttle once it cracks the sound barrier with a Ka-Boom it is a free fall glider, no engine noise.

Perhaps instead of ablative cocoons they can be standard drop pods designed into the overall stealth shape??

When the Aircraft drops below radar coverage, the pods open and drop off leaving the mechs in the carrying position ??

Glad you like the concept, I just wanted something to have a unique twist to the scenarios we play.
.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:54 pm 
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Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:00 pm
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Quote:
Do "we" as a World Power have absolute 100% supreme knowledge of whats entering our own atmosphere 24-7-365??
No but there are two things to consider.

1. If NORAD isn't a 100% percent certain 24-7, then they probably come pretty close to it. Also on a world where the primary vector of attack is from space(pretty much any BT world), there's goging to be considerable assets devoted to skywatch.

2. BT unvierse craft use aerobraking techniques to enter the atmosphere. This generates a lot of heat, which in turn ionizes the air around the craft. A little known fact that they discovered with the SR-71(probably known as classified info before then) is that ionized air is an excellent radar refelctor and a aircraft travelling at hypersonic speeds generate a lot of ionized air. ie, there is no such thing as a passive stealth at hypersonic. So, you have to rely on jamming, and unless you've got top flight gear, that jamming is likely to be noticed.

Assuming you've got good jammers, there's the whole IR angle. Even if they'd consider ignoring "just another falling star", their computers would immediately catch the fact that said fireball has no radar signature.

So really, the only way for this thing to plausibly work is to have two really good pilots, one of which is flying a dropship and the other which is flying the stealth craft. The idea is that the insertion craft would fly extremely close to the DS during reentry. If the pilots are good, and lucky, the insertion craft doesn't break up in the turbulence, get fried in the DS flare or run into the DS. Once both have been in the atmosphere long enough for their hulls to cool, the insertion craft can break off and begin a low speed run on the IP.

Oh, one final thing. I know it looks really cool on your kitbash(good job BTW), but mounting anything on hardpoints is the anithesis of stealth. Hardpoint loads will typically boost a plane's RCS by roughly an order of magnitude or more. This is the reason that all RL stealth planes utilize internal weapon bays.

-Jackmc

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:31 pm 
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Major General
Major General

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:24 pm
Posts: 850
Location: Capital Region, New York
Jack, I agree with you to a point. However, I feel that you're missing a few things to consider.
Quote:
1. If NORAD isn't a 100% percent certain 24-7, then they probably come pretty close to it. Also on a world where the primary vector of attack is from space(pretty much any BT world), there's goging to be considerable assets devoted to skywatch.

2. BT unvierse craft use aerobraking techniques to enter the atmosphere. This generates a lot of heat, which in turn ionizes the air around the craft. A little known fact that they discovered with the SR-71(probably known as classified info before then) is that ionized air is an excellent radar refelctor and a aircraft travelling at hypersonic speeds generate a lot of ionized air. ie, there is no such thing as a passive stealth at hypersonic. So, you have to rely on jamming, and unless you've got top flight gear, that jamming is likely to be noticed.
It's true that the only source of attack is from space. However, it's also true that the only source of transport and the secondary-but-still-a-significant-minority-especially-for-back-woods-planets source of communication. A large number of planets would ignore random DropShips.

Second, I'm not convinced that the vast, vast majority of planets in the Inner Sphere have anywhere near the kind of level of sensor net that you're talking about. Some, most definitely; Terra, any capital, any heavily industralized planet. But not all. A large number of planets are at the subsistance-agriculture level of economy, with little or no garrison. Not a majority by any means, but a significant number. Even beyond those, most planets have little or no strategic value; therefore, why would you fortify them to that point? They'll have good coverage over important areas (Starports, cities, military bases), but they'll probably have glaring holes in their coverage, or at best rely on satellite sensors - a system that's pretty easy to defeat.

And on top of that, if they see something entering the atmosphere, they don't necessarily know what it is. They may know nothing more than that "an object entered the atmosphere, and statistically it's probably a meteorite".

Consider that, if what you're saying is true, pretty much no pirate raid or objective raid would ever succeed unless it had overwhelming force; and, at that point, it's less a raid and more a planetary assault. The ability to enter a planet's atmosphere undetected exists in the universe; and based on the severe lack of stealth equipment most units seem to have, that means there must be a hole in the coverage somewhere.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:43 pm 
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Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:00 pm
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Quote:
Second, I'm not convinced that the vast, vast majority of planets in the Inner Sphere have anywhere near the kind of level of sensor net that you're talking about. Some, most definitely; Terra, any capital, any heavily industralized planet. But not all. A large number of planets are at the subsistance-agriculture level of economy, with little or no garrison.

[snip]

Consider that, if what you're saying is true, pretty much no pirate raid or objective raid would ever succeed unless it had overwhelming force; and, at that point, it's less a raid and more a planetary assault. The ability to enter a planet's atmosphere undetected exists in the universe; and based on the severe lack of stealth equipment most units seem to have, that means there must be a hole in the coverage somewhere.
I'm not saying that every world has a full coverage, state of the art sensor net. However; you don't spend billions or trillions of c-bills developing a stealth insertion platform to raid planet BFE. You develop that kind of equipment to hit high-value targets, the kind that have excellent sensor nets. FWIW, most of the fiction I've read has even backworld planets detecting most spacecraft. The majority of the time the issue seems not to be detection but rather being able to mobilize forces to do anything about it. If you don't have aerospace fighters to intercept a dropship it does matter whether or not you detect it one minute or one year out.

-Jackmc

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:14 pm 
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Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:28 pm
Posts: 633
Location: Somewhere between Morgues and Arc-Royal, fighting with the Wolves-in-Exile.
Quote:
Seawolf................always willing to listen to anothers point of view.

questions in return??

Do "we" as a World Power have absolute 100% supreme knowledge of whats entering our own atmosphere 24-7-365??

Lets say this aircraft came down somewhere in the deep South Atlantic. Could anyone say what it was ???

I understand that the Space Shuttle once it cracks the sound barrier with a Ka-Boom it is a free fall glider, no engine noise.

Perhaps instead of ablative cocoons they can be standard drop pods designed into the overall stealth shape??

When the Aircraft drops below radar coverage, the pods open and drop off leaving the mechs in the carrying position ??

Glad you like the concept, I just wanted something to have a unique twist to the scenarios we play.
.
As pointed out by JackMc, Military organizations such as NORAD would have the capability on that basis to monitor what is coming from outside the atmosphere within reason.

Would a sensor net tell you where something has landed? Yes, its called GPS. Would it tell you what it is, more than likely not. However, let's remember what we are discussing here. We are talking about the insertion of a mechanical object design to circumvent tracking systems to perform acts of espionage.

In the Battletech universe: Any system has a Drop port. Therefore they have Air Traffic Control. Essentially a sensor net that is global that controls the outbound and incoming flights of dropships and other small craft, as well as more conventional atmospheric craft. Essentially its one big Command and Control suite. Your craft would be picked up, essentially becuase its stealth armour leaves a whole in the air.

Let's put it this way. Look at a submarine. from the surface, you may or may not pick up the fact that its down there. However from the air, there is a shadow moving underneath the ways. Without sonar, you may presum its a whale, but the reality is, the submarine is one big hole in the water.

Your craft is essentially the same thing except its re-entering atmosphere, causing friction, ionizing and giving off one hell of a radar signal. Stealth or no stealth, you'll be showing on the screens becuase your exciting the air around you.

Now by the time you get to low atmosphere and resume flight, someone knows your there. Most large craft do not handle well at low altitude, and handle even less under a thousand feet. If a pilot chooses to fly that thing NOE to get under ground radar, he'll be fighting the plane just to be able to keep her airborne. Your dealing with wind, trees, animals (the occasional flying monkey, but thats another story) and terrain features such as building and mountains.

Building your ship to incorporate the drop pods into the stucture would lesson the radar signature, but you're still running the risk of detection once any of those bays open. Even a drop pod opening up is immediately picked up by radar.

Most BT systems are going to have your average ATCS systems. Major industrial worlds, march capitals, House Capitals, are going to have the state of the art you-are-here systems.

Unfotunately all dropships, from what the fluff texts have stated, even aerodynes handle like drunk cows and are bricks. Something that huge will attract attention.

Oh and one other thing while I am thinking of it. Someone had made the comment of a meteorite passign through the atmosphere. That person will realize that the supposed statistical meteorite isn't a metorite when it slows down and begins to fly. Meteors tend to not do those sorts of things.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:23 pm 
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Colonel
Colonel

Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:22 pm
Posts: 427
Hi guys, before we digress to "Who's yo' MOMMA " :lol: :lol:

I just thought it was a unique twist to getting 2 mechs delivered.

If you like the Stealth concept, I found some photos of my cargo hauler Dropship. Talk about your "Flying Brick" This is a total kit-bash............
Image
Image
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:52 pm 
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Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 2142
Quote:
If you like the Stealth concept, I found some photos of my cargo hauler Dropship. Talk about your "Flying Brick" This is a total kit-bash
Niiiice! It definately looks imposing. The only quibble I have is the dish. If you've ever got some spare time, it might be cool to make the sensor dish lay down against the hull. Being a skydiver, I think I have a decent understanding of airflow and the like, and my experience says that something like that dish being in the airstream is going to have a substantial effect on the flight characteristics of your dropship.

BTW, I know I've been nit-picking, but you've done some awesome work in modeling up those designs.

-Jackmc

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:33 pm 
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Colonel
Colonel

Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:22 pm
Posts: 427
Say thats an idea............. :D :D

I'm sure I can work up a folding hinge for that dish PDQ.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:36 pm 
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Loki
Loki

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 11444
Location: Minnesnowta
very cool DropShip....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:53 pm 
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Master Tech & Major Scrounge
Master Tech & Major Scrounge

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 3551
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Those are certainly interesting dropships je. I really like the brick. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:22 am 
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The Last Boy Scout
The Last Boy Scout

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 9172
Location: Innsifil, Ont., Canada
I like this second Drop Ship. I can see that you have raided some parts from a Star Wars Y wing.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:04 am 
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Kommandant
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:00 pm
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Location: Austin, Texas, on assignment from the Skye Republic
[quote='JackMC"]I'm not saying that every world has a full coverage, state of the art sensor net. However; you don't spend billions or trillions of c-bills developing a stealth insertion platform to raid planet BFE. You develop that kind of equipment to hit high-value targets, the kind that have excellent sensor nets.[/quote]

You develop stealth aircraft to raid high value targets, yes, but top secret R&D facilities frequently have remote locations and low profile (read: not incredibly effective) sensor nets. These kinds of facilities would rely on the hopeful fact that no one knows they're there to prevent these kinds of raids. So, in an instance such as this, a raid like this just might well be effective.


That being said, the poster who said "do we as a world power have 100% supreme knowledge" et cetera...

1: That came across as having a fair amount of smoke on that. Let's keep tempers down and keep this civil, ok?

2: Do we have "supreme knowledge"?

Yes, if the Supremes are coming to our planet to play a gig, I think we'd know about it, especially if they filed a flight plan.

Seriously, we track all sorts of inbound traffic, meteors, you name it.

If it's a meteor, then it's not going to alter its path until it hits the ground. When it does, there'd be a seismic impact, that we'd pick up on. If there was no seismic impact, then I would assume the "meteor" was a possible inbound craft, and dispatch scouts to investigate and report back. When we tracked it coming down, then we'd know where it was supposed to land. If we go there and there's no sign of whatever it was (and it was a land location), then I'd know that I had hostiles in the area and a fair idea of where they started from, and react accordingly. If it was water... there should be some sign of an impact. signs of fish kill, for example. Ever heard of grenade fishing? Now imagine using a meteor for this. There's going to be dead fish, and carrion eaters, et cetera.

So, would we have "supreme" knowledge? No. But based on what it did or didn't do, we can make a pretty good guess as to what it was or was not.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:12 am 
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Major General
Major General

Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 924
Location: Australia
Some thoughts on the Stealth. Hey, it works if you use CBT physics, okay?

1) Let's put the 'Mechs inside aerodynamic pods of stealth armor. Expensive as heck, and more likely to work with a humanoid 'Mech than with Battle Angels, Marauders or the like, but that will address airspeed issues, and with some hand-waving also lower the radar cross-section. BT physics, right? Better than Trekkie "unobtanium".

2) Okay, re-entry is kinda obvious. But think of this scenario: a dozen or so drop-ships make a hot re-entry, roaring down in blazes of fusion flame & ionised air, filling the skys with jamming. 'Mechs begin to drop, and as their drop pods break open the sky is filled with radar clutter because the inside of the pod walls is lined with aluminium foil. In the middle of all this sound and fury, who's going to notice one really faint radar blip amongst the others break away at low level?

Meanwhile, the groundside commander is sending out commands to scattered units to try and organise a counter-attack, when suddenly his transmissions are broken off in mid-sentence - the Black Adder team has struck amidst the confusion in a faultless decapitation attack! By the time the defenders work out what's happened and reroute command, the invaders' beachhead is secure.

Commando raids work even better in conjunction with mass attacks than in isolation, mainly because everyone tends to keep their eye on the main game.

W.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:11 am 
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The Pirate King
The Pirate King

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 2742
Location: Arcadia, Fla
Quote:
I like this second Drop Ship. I can see that you have raided some parts from a Star Wars Y wing.
And Legos. Can't forget the Legos. :)

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