Welcome to the HeavyMetalPro Forums

It is currently Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:08 am

All times are UTC-04:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:39 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Gigantor III (Dreadnought)

Overview:

The origin of the Super Heavy BattleMech dates back to the final years of the original Star League with Stefan Amaris and the original Matar or Behemoth design. Although the Behemoth design failed, the Word of Blake successfully deployed the Super Heavy Omega design to defend Terra in 3078. In 3090, the Lyran Commonwealth, under the direction of Archon Adam Steiner, started the design of Super Heavy ‘Mechs with the first one being manufactured in 3097 called the Gigantor. The second one, called the Gigantor II, was manufactured in 3099 and uses the same basic chassis of the original design. A third model, the Gigantor III, emerged soon after the second and many believe it will become the primary model for manufacture. Some have speculated that these designs were a perfect fit for his defensive strategies against Clans Jade Falcon and Wolf.

The Gigantor III is a 200 ton Battlemech that has a Dreadnought classification for being over 100 tons. Most assume since the ‘Mech is so gigantic or enormous that it was named Gigantor although some farfetched rumors say it was named after an ancient Terran cartoon involving a flying robot. Offensively, the design is equipped with 9 Large Pulse Lasers and the withering accuracy of the Pulse Lasers is further enhanced with a sophisticated Targeting Computer. Defensively, the ‘Mech carries a staggering 42.5 tons of Ferro-Lamellor Armor, Angel ECM Suite and 3 Laser Anti-missile systems to help sustain it on the battlefield. The Gigantor III is a blend of the first two models, adding some defensive measures while sacrificing very little in the way of firepower. Like other slow units, the Gigantor III is meant primarily for defensive roles and needs supporting units to maximize its effectiveness.

Game Notes:
Constructed using the Superheavy ‘Mech construction rules on pages 248-263 from the Battletech Field Manual 3145.
Model: Gigantor III
Configuration: Biped Battlemech
Mass: 200 tons
Technology Base: Mixed (Base- Inner Sphere, Clan where noted)
Engine: 400 XL Engine, 26.5 tons (Clan)(1 critical in LT, RT)
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Jumping MP: 0
Cockpit: 4 tons
Gyro: 8 tons
Internal Structure: Endo Steel, 20 tons (3 critical LA, 3 RA, 1 CT)
Heat Sinks: 37(74) (Clan)(3 Double Heat Sinks in LA, RA, 3 CT, 2 in LL,RL, 1 in LT, 7 in RT)
Armor: 42.5 tons of Ferro-Lamellor Armor (595) (Clan)(3 Critical in LT, RT)

Internal Structure Armor
H: 4 12
CT: 60 79 Front/ 40 Rear
LT/RT: 42 64 Front/ 20 Rear
LA/RA: 33 64
LL/RL: 42 84

Weapons and Equipment:
9 Large Pulse Lasers (Clan) (3 in LA, RA, 1 in LT, CT, RT)
1 Angel ECM Suite (Clan)(CT)
3 Laser Anti-Missile System(Clan)(H, LA, RA)
Targeting Computer (Clan)(LT)
Communications Equipment (2 tons)(CT)

Design has Shoulder and Upper Arm Actuators. Lower Arm and Hand Actuators have been removed.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:58 am 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
how many Slots does a Dreadnought have in its Locations? are there 12 free Locations in the Center Torso with an xl engine and a gyroscope?

does it make sense to have a mech that produces 45 more heat on Alpha than it can compensate? in this case the mech has only one type of weapon, so bracket-fire is not the answer.
are there 11 free Slots for the TC in the left Torso ?

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:04 pm 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
cobayashimaru wrote:
how many Slots does a Dreadnought have in its Locations? are there 12 free Locations in the Center Torso with an xl engine and a gyroscope?

does it make sense to have a mech that produces 45 more heat on Alpha than it can compensate? in this case the mech has only one type of weapon, so bracket-fire is not the answer.
are there 11 free Slots for the TC in the left Torso ?


Super Heavy biped 'Mechs have the same number of slots as standard biped 'Mechs. The amount of space that components take up, however is half normal, rounded up. So a standard engine, for example, would take up 3 critical slots. A medium laser would take up 1 slot, a Clan Large Pulse Laser would take up 1 slot. Etc.

I'm not sure how you got 45 on the heat scale. The 9 Large Pulse Lasers produce 90 heat, the 3 Laser AMSs produce 15 heat (if they go off) for a total of 105 heat if it fired everything. The design has a heat dissipation of 74, so that would put it at 31 on the heat scale plus movement. The excess weaponry comes into play mainly after it starts taking critical hits.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:14 pm 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
used the numbers for the ER Version...


spare weapons ? interesting, but i think that normally you would also loose heatsinks, so spare weapons are of limited use.

i would consider using ERLLs instead, first the pulse/TC Combo has been nerfed, second something that mooves 2/3 could use a bit of range to compensate. Any bit of range it can get.

in a prepared firing Position coolant-hoses could be attached to the mech, and it could be firing more weapons.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:08 pm 
Offline
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:13 pm
Posts: 643
Location: Sheffield UK
If your gonna go slow 2/3 have at least a couple of the longer range weapons like ER Large Lasers otherwise you will be unable to return fire to a mech that can do at least 3/5 that has longer range weapons.

_________________
hmmm hooom


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:19 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
A walking pillbox, over the top weapons setup, very much min/maxed, all Clan tech with a few exceptions since the rules have these as IS (ROTS) only and then the idea of pulse/targ which is not anything new or ground breaking, but for ATN that is not anything new. The mech suffers the same issues all slow moving mechs have and this one has it in spades. It wouldn't give much to the fight and will be come the biggest target. Now the defender or attacker has aerospace or artillery this mech is going to die very fast. Yes it has a lot of armor, but this is Battletech and the armor is only as good as the dice rolls, this is not a non-canon game like MegaMek, this mech is built for the board/miniature game thus suffers from the luck of the dice and the person running the mech, basically it is not going to offer much to a lance on lance fight beyond being the mech to bring down or destroy by the other side. Or it might not be since once it's lance mates die it's luck went south anyways.

Best use for this mech is shock factor and that is it. A mech with this kind of resources would not be made beyond a computer model, since not even the Republic would willingly waste the resources, again going for in game comment there. Out side of the game it's not anything that can't be put to use on smaller frame that can actually move and add to the support or attack of a forces, there is a reason we don't see many 80 to 100 ton mechs as the main stay of the majority of the IS/Clan military forces.

Add this mech to ATN other super assault style tanks and his preference for pulse/targ or Gauss and targ and you have another excellent example of power gaming and min/max at it's finest and worthy of use if you need to win at all cost and best the other side in sheer boredom of waiting for this to actually offer something to the fight on hand and even with support of other mechs it would not last long once any enemy hems it in with mines or better still stays at range and snipes or keeps flanking it and hitting and running back to cause it to have to move in order to be relative to the fight.

Better use for this mech would be carrying LRMs or Artillery or Arrow IV.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:01 pm 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
Code:
BattleMech Technical Readout

Type/Model:    David
Tech:          Mixed Tech  /  3060
Config:        Biped BattleMech
Rules:         Level 3, Standard design

Mass:          100 tons
Chassis:       Composite (C)
Power Plant:   400 XL Fusion (C)
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets:     4 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor Type:    Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:     
  1 Laser AMS(C)
  4 ER Large Lasers(C)
  1 Angel ECM Suite(C)
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    David
Mass:          100 tons
Construction Options:  Fractional Accounting

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  152 pts Composite (C)         0      5,00
Engine:        400 XL Fusion                10     26,25
   Walking MP:   4
   Running MP:   6
   Jumping MP:   4
Heat Sinks:     27 Double (C) [54]          22     17,00
 (Heat Sink Loc: 2 LA, 3 RA, 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
XL Gyro:                                     6      2,00
Cockpit, Life Supt.:                         5      3,00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA    R: Sh+UA             12       ,00
Armor Factor:  302 (C)                       7     15,73
 (Armor Crit Loc: 1 HD, 4 LA, 2 LT)

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Head:                      3          9     
   Center Torso:             31         46     
   Center Torso (Rear):                 15     
   L/R Side Torso:           21      31/31     
   L/R Side Torso (Rear):            10/10     
   L/R Arm:                  17      34/34     
   L/R Leg:                  21      41/41     

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Laser AMS  (C)         RA      5           2      1,50
2 ER Large Lasers (C)    RA     24           2      8,00
2 ER Large Lasers (C)    LA     24           2      8,00
1 Angel ECM Suite  (C)   LT      0           2      1,50
1 Targeting Computer  (C)RT                  4      4,00
4 Standard Jump Jets:                        4      8,00
 (Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                         53          78     99,98
Crits & Tons Left:                           0       ,02

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        31.356.534 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    3.078 (old BV = 2.993)
Cost per BV2:      10.187,31
Weapon Value:      5.549 / 5.549 (Ratio = 1,80 / 1,80)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 39;  MRDmg = 34;  LRDmg = 25
BattleForce2:      MP: 4J,  Armor/Structure: 8/6
                   Damage PB/M/L: 6/4/4,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: MA;  Point Value: 31
                   Specials: ecm


i bet two of These would shred a gigantor, and would cost less

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:23 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
It would be a fight that's for sure, a short one.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:45 am 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
i differ in it being a short fight,
the likelyhood to hit from outside a gigantors reach are not high.
That means that it would have to be slowly destroyed.
Unless the Attackers score a few lucky hits that is, 8 ERLLs mean 8 oportunitys per round.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:59 am 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
i wonder: if i wanted to overpower a 200 ton behemoth, wich would have more space inside, why not use a 125 ton ton behemoth with a 3-5 movement that could use the same rules?
if i can squeeze 4 ERLLs in a 100 ton mech i guess i could squeeze in 6 of them into one 125 ton mech.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:58 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Which proves my point, the mech is easily countered by other designs and give how slow it is a quick battle will indeed happen since it will never be able to support its lance mates or they it.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:24 pm 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
seems to work:
Code:
BattleMech Technical Readout
                       
Type/Model:    Steroid David
Tech:          Clan / 3060
Config:        Biped BattleMech
Rules:         Level 3, Custom design

Mass:          125 tons
Chassis:       Standard
Power Plant:   375 XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 32,4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54,0 km/h
Jump Jets:     None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type:    Standard
Armament:     
  6 ER Large Lasers
  ECM System
  Laser AMS
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:   Steroid David
Mass:          125 tons

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  190 pts standard             0     12,5
Engine:        375 XL Fusion                5     19,50
   Walking MP:   3
   Running MP:   5
   Jumping MP:   0
Heat Sinks:     40 Double [80]              22     30,00
 (Heat Sink Loc: 25 7LA 7RA 2LL 2RL 3LT 3 Rt Hd )
XLGyro:                                        3      2,00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors:                3      4,00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA    R: Sh+UA             12       ,00
Armor Factor: 383 pts Standard               0     24,00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
 
Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
6 ER Large Lasers    3LA,3RA     72           6     24,00
1 ECM Suite              LT      0           1      1,00
1 Laser AMS              LT      5           1      1,50
1 Targeting Computer     RT                  3      5,00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                         79        59      123,00
Crits & Tons Left:                         7         2,0

Calculated Factors:
Top secret

i left two tons unused for paint and camo(and calculation Errors)
Internal structure and armor are estimates...

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:28 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
The 125 tonner seems to be a better mech that can actually offer something to the fight, no faster then the other 100 ton mechs that come before, but still faster then 200 ton mech that would be out of the fight since it's to slow.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:00 am 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
to reduce the aiming-difficulty and increase Effectivity i could replace one ERLL and 6 DHSs with 2 C3Masters and a ERML (mixed tech for IS use only)

second variant would have one C3Master and 2 ERMl with only 2 DHS less

Third Variant would have C3slave added only

to be combined with savannah-Master C3slave-version.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:12 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
zenorac wrote:
If your gonna go slow 2/3 have at least a couple of the longer range weapons like ER Large Lasers otherwise you will be unable to return fire to a mech that can do at least 3/5 that has longer range weapons.



The vast majority of my battles take place on a finite battlefield and have more than one unit on each side YMMV. I am not terribly concerned about not being able to engage every enemy unit on the battlefield every turn. A finite battlefield means, for example, that you can't constantly move backward and maintain some precise range against a particular target. Besides, trying to stay at a particular range and have shots can be difficult with terrain and can frequently be unwise with other enemy units. Since your opponent won't know what forces you are taking and will have equal knowledge of the battlefield, he won't be able to customize his force selection against you :)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:50 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Finite Battlefield, is this do to your battle being on MegaMek vs the board/miniature game? And this idea you have of not knowing what your enemy is fielding tells me that you are playing against a computer then a human player, since, and unless blind play rules are in use which most won't use, most folks will share what they are fielding because they want you to know they beat you with a Stinger, Locust and Hollander and Jenner when you took your super assault and similar mechs for example.

So tell us ATN are you playing against people or via MegaMek?

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:53 pm 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:28 pm
Posts: 1794
Thunder/FASCAM and BA would be a nice counter.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:42 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Rockjock01 wrote:
Thunder/FASCAM and BA would be a nice counter.



Agreed, but he will tell you how that all can be countered etc...

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:39 am 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:28 pm
Posts: 1794
Just out of curiousity does anyone have a clue on the price range of this thing?


It is like one of the TRO monitor tanks with a higher price tag, and without the versatility.


I was giving ATN the benefit of the doubt. What sort of force would you field with this anyway?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:49 am 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
110,279,500

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:36 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Rockjock01 wrote:
Thunder/FASCAM and BA would be a nice counter.


Possibly but a lot of it would depend on what other unit(s) were on the side of the Gigantor III, terrain, etc. If the side of the Gigantor III had artillery, for example, that would mean it could clear mines and would be especially nasty to Battlearmor. A counter to a counter :) I would be wary about designing your force around what you think the other person might take as you might roll snake eyes...


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:49 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Rockjock01 wrote:
Just out of curiousity does anyone have a clue on the price range of this thing?


It is like one of the TRO monitor tanks with a higher price tag, and without the versatility.


I was giving ATN the benefit of the doubt. What sort of force would you field with this anyway?



When purchasing military units, cost may be an issue for mercenaries but it doesn't seem to be an issue for the major houses/clans. In any case, unless your group balances forces with cost, a more important question would be the Battle Value (BV) of the Gigantor III. If I had to guess, I'd say it was around 5000 BV. What forces I would take with the Gigantor III and if I would take the Gigantor III in the first place would depend a lot on how much BV for each side, terrain and scenario objective(s).


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:10 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Karagin wrote:
Finite Battlefield, is this do to your battle being on MegaMek vs the board/miniature game? And this idea you have of not knowing what your enemy is fielding tells me that you are playing against a computer then a human player, since, and unless blind play rules are in use which most won't use, most folks will share what they are fielding because they want you to know they beat you with a Stinger, Locust and Hollander and Jenner when you took your super assault and similar mechs for example.

So tell us ATN are you playing against people or via MegaMek?


I have never played MegaMek. When I play the Battletech board game it is face to face with real people. The not knowing what someone is fielding part applies to force selection before the game starts and not during the game. There is no way I am going to tell the opposing player what I am taking during force selection so they can customize their own force selection. If you want to tell your opponent what you are taking so they can customize their own forces, that's your business :)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:35 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
ATN082268 wrote:
Karagin wrote:
Finite Battlefield, is this do to your battle being on MegaMek vs the board/miniature game? And this idea you have of not knowing what your enemy is fielding tells me that you are playing against a computer then a human player, since, and unless blind play rules are in use which most won't use, most folks will share what they are fielding because they want you to know they beat you with a Stinger, Locust and Hollander and Jenner when you took your super assault and similar mechs for example.

So tell us ATN are you playing against people or via MegaMek?


I have never played MegaMek. When I play the Battletech board game it is face to face with real people. The not knowing what someone is fielding part applies to force selection before the game starts and not during the game. There is no way I am going to tell the opposing player what I am taking during force selection so they can customize their own force selection. If you want to tell your opponent what you are taking so they can customize their own forces, that's your business :)


You must play with an odd group since as I said most groups will let each other know what they are fielding, and even knowing doesn't mean much since the out come of the fight is going be won with the dice and what moves you make and your comments do indeed sound like a player who fights against a computer more often then not.

And if I tell you I am using a Champion, a Thug, a Dart, and a Shadow Hawk, then all you know is I have four mechs of odd weights, you have no idea what variant or model I am going to field so you can do a few things, you can pick mechs to counter the heavier mechs aka the Thug and Champion or you can figure on something to run around these, but I am not seeing how you can customize things beyond that since most battles are going to be book mechs or set to a weight or BV limit, thus limiting what you can do or not do. And even if you go with Thunders or LB-X cluster shots or the special AC ammos etc...you will let that out of the bag the minute you use them, which gains you that bit of surprise but nothing as you keep claiming that can't be countered by someone thinking things through, just as your super mechs and tanks can be countered by using the terrain and tactical thinking will for sure beat your super mechs and tanks.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:51 am 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:28 pm
Posts: 1794
If you go on the basis that C-bills are not a limiting factor, then how do you use BV as one? C-Bills is at least an in-game factor, BV is totally made up.

If the number is 5,000bv for this mech you can run at least two Daishi against it, in a tacticless slugfest.



I try to build and evaluate mechs based on an in game viewpoint. That doesn't always end up with the most optimized mechs, but it tends to make logical sense, at least to me.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:05 am 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
That is a good point Rockjock01, the BV is pretty pointless. C-Bills forces folks to really have to chose what to get. My group normally picks a total weight for how we randomly chose mechs. Seems to work for us well enough. But I do see your point for C-Bills.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:41 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Rockjock01 wrote:
If you go on the basis that C-bills are not a limiting factor, then how do you use BV as one? C-Bills is at least an in-game factor, BV is totally made up.

If the number is 5,000bv for this mech you can run at least two Daishi against it, in a tacticless slugfest.



I try to build and evaluate mechs based on an in game viewpoint. That doesn't always end up with the most optimized mechs, but it tends to make logical sense, at least to me.



In Battletech, C-Bills represent the costs, for example, to build a particular item like a 'Mech and has little to do with its capabilities. Even as an in game reason, how do you find C-bills useful? Maybe for a Mercenary unit doing something like selling salvage but what about a typical house/clan? If you stick with standard engines, you can get Clan 'Mechs for the same price as 3025 Inner Sphere 'Mechs. For example, a Clan Warhammer IIC costs 9,183,000 C-bills and a Inner Sphere 3025 AS7-D Atlas costs 9,676,000 C-Bills. Are examples like this a good way to balance forces? What happens if the Warhammer IIC pilot also has a 3/4 Gunnery/Piloting skills and the Atlas pilot has a 4/5 Gunnery/Piloting skills? There are in game cases that exist like in Solaris VII where, given a particular pilot and 'Mech and fought on particular battlefields, someone is #1 so to speak but I am not aware of any in game system which generally ranks a design.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:59 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Karagin wrote:
That is a good point Rockjock01, the BV is pretty pointless. C-Bills forces folks to really have to chose what to get. My group normally picks a total weight for how we randomly chose mechs. Seems to work for us well enough. But I do see your point for C-Bills.


Tonnage can generally work for balancing forces with a few caveats: the type of units are the same, the gunnery/piloting are the same and the tech level are the same. I also wouldn't recommend it for the beginning player.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:41 pm 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
Actually ATN, no it doesn't need to be the same size mechs or anything, you tell your other player, you have 250 tons, pick your force, and you, yourself have the same limit, and you pick your own, you add in the limit of four mechs if IS or 5 if Clan. Then you wait and see what they tell you that they have, which they will cause folks like to brag about how their mediums or heavies will beat what ever it is you end up fielding.

Tech levels can be any, piloting skills and gunnery can be rolled random, all of that is not the factors being used, tonnage is. Thus the only thing limited you or anyone to picking a good or decent force is your own dislike of the idea or animosity towards it and the need to have other factors to further limit things.

My group has three to four ways to use tonnage, first is a random total weight is picked like the 250 tons I mentioned above. Second is we have index cards with tonnages for attacker and defender already picked, they are never equal and then you and the other player pick your forces with in the tonnage limits and roll P/G and go from there. Third way is to have the force setup by tonnage, like you have to have one 45 ton mech, a 60 ton mech, a 75 ton mech and then a 50 mech. Both sides then pick from the existing book mechs or if they are using player designed mechs both side must agree. Tech can be limited on this one or not and P/G is rolled or all agree to 4 Gunnery 5 piloting or 4/4 for both. And the least used but the funniest and craziest is the last way you take a bunch of printed mechs sheets face them all facedown, normally have someone not playing do this, and then you just pick four of them and that is what you get. Roll for Gunnery and Piloting and off you go.

Oh and we normally do brag about what we have so as to get that last little haha moment in when we either fail at winning and get ribbed cause we talked all the trash, or get the win and get to brag about how the Dasher took out the War Dog with the two crits to the both the engine and the head in round 4.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:52 pm 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:28 pm
Posts: 1794
My point with BV is that it doesn't exist in the game world, so I tend to view/rate designs based on in game criteria as much as table top. So things like a Superheavy have extra issues like the logistics of transporting them for an invasion(which also makes things like quadvees, and light vehicles more appealing).

I would not take this if we are taking straight BV. A pair of clan assaults with the extra BV going towards BA, or something akin to annoyance units(VTOLS, Savannah Masters etc) would be more flexible and useful in. The only situation I see picking a unit this expensive, and limited is a scenario that limits the number of units for a side, or an in world reason like the RotS using supers that nobody has seen as a terror weapon to confuse the enemy.

In our games the norm is a C-Bill limit, added to either a BV, or total ton/number of units limit. The last is because it can get annoying when someone wants to field waves of Savannah Masters in place of a light mech lance.

The C-Bill limit also helps with Clan balance in my opinion. WIthout it you would never see anything but Omnis.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:31 pm 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
House rule: mechs calculate their Speed according to their weight. a 105 ton superheavy that has 10 tons less Needs a 380 engine to run at 4/6
house rule2: wether a mech uses superheavy rules is dependent on the Chassis-Rating, a 105 ton Chassis uses the rules, even when it is not using more than 95 of the allowed tons

this i would not allow if i would run a game, it is rather IMBA.

Code:
BattleMech Technical Readout
                   

Type/Model:    Superdavid
Tech:          Clan / 3250
Config:        Biped BattleMech Superheavy
Rules:         Level 3, Prototype
Mass:          95 tons effective, 105 tons chassis
Chassis:       Composite
Power Plant:   380 XXL Fusion
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets:     None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type:    Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:     
  6 ER Large Lasers
  3 Micro Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Superdavid
Mass:          95 tons

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  145 pts Composite             0      5,25(weight for 105 ton Composit, Points are for 95 tons Composit)
Engine:        380 XXL Fusion                4     14,00
   Walking MP:   4
   Running MP:   6
   Jumping MP:   0
Heat Sinks:     39 Double [78]              24     29,00
 (Heat Sink Loc: 6 LA, 6 RA, 4 LT, 4 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL, )
XL Gyro:                                     3      2,00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors:                3      3,00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA    R: Sh+UA             12       ,00
Armor Factor:  293 pts Ferro-Fibrous         4     15,50 this is max armor for a 95 ton mech
 (Armor Crit Loc: 2 LT 2 RT)

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Head:                      3          9     
   Center Torso:             30         45     
   Center Torso (Rear):                 15     
   L/R Side Torso:           20      30/30     
   L/R Side Torso (Rear):            10/10     
   L/R Arm:                  16      32/32     
   L/R Leg:                  20      40/40     

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
3 ER Large Lasers        RA     36           3     12,00
1 Micro Pulse Laser      RA      1           1       ,50
3 ER Large Lasers        LA     36           3     12,00
1 Micro Pulse Laser      LA      1           1       ,50
1 Micro Pulse Laser      HD      1           1       ,50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                         75         101     94,05
Crits & Tons Left:                                 10,75
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        unknown,( the Price for a 95 ton mech with this Equipment is 102 000 000)
Battle Value 2:    2.815 (old BV = 2.540)this is the value HMpro gives for a 95 ton mech with this equipment
Cost per BV2:      36.216,89
Weapon Value:      6.894 / 6.894 (Ratio = 2,45 / 2,45)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 58;  MRDmg = 45;  LRDmg = 28
BattleForce2:      MP: 4,  Armor/Structure: 7/4
                   Damage PB/M/L: 9/6/6,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: MA;  Point Value: 28

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:13 am 
Offline
Stratego
Stratego

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 10709
Location: Ft. Hood Texas
That does make sense and would be logical...then again this is Battletech. :lol:

But do bring up a good idea/point and one that should be applied to the other weights and classes of mechs, vehicles and aerospace fighters.

_________________
Karagin-

Darkness is a friend of mine. Sometimes I have to beat it back, or it would overwhelm me. Shirley Meier

http://karagin12.livejournal.com/

The Wookiee, he's not wearing any pants!

Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:01 pm 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3151
the only Thing i can probably not do is shoehorn e TC into that.without reducing raw firepower that is.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:10 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Rockjock01 wrote:
In our games the norm is a C-Bill limit, added to either a BV, or total ton/number of units limit. The last is because it can get annoying when someone wants to field waves of Savannah Masters in place of a light mech lance.


Whatever formula works for your gaming group to balance scenarios is what matters. It's been a while since I've looked at the BV formula but I think there is an adjustment for an uneven number of units on each side.

Rockjock01 wrote:
The C-Bill limit also helps with Clan balance in my opinion. WIthout it you would never see anything but Omnis.


A C-Bill limit generally excludes units (Clan or Inner Sphere) with XL engines and since most OmniMechs have XL Engines, that's why you won't see many people field them with that limitation. I've never seen anything "in game" to suggest that the cost of a military unit was generally a concern for a typical house/clan. If it was, then why build units with XL Engines, for example?

In any case, if you have any scenarios with the Clans and you are trying to be "in game" somehow with a C-Bill limit, the Clan side will largely be restricted to Garrison commands which frequently use Second Line 'Mechs that have standard engines, vehicle designs with standard engines and infantry/battlearmor. Do the Clans have Omnis with standard engines? Sure but you'll get bored really quick if you have to play any significant number of scenarios exclusively with them.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:04 pm 
Offline
Commanding General
Commanding General

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:28 pm
Posts: 1794
I said C-Bill limit, plus a BV or tons/total number of units limit.

Doing it that way makes it appealing to run say a star of Omnis with elite pilots in a game where someone else fills the same slot with a mixed binary of garrison units of garrison quality.



I guess my version of BT always had an economic factor. If C-Bills are not a concern why not just field larger and larger forces? No reason for vehicles, or infantry at all.


We play different ways, in different styles. That is what is great about games, and I'll leave it at that.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Gigantor III
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:44 am 
Offline
Major
Major

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:00 pm
Posts: 368
Rockjock01 wrote:
I said C-Bill limit, plus a BV or tons/total number of units limit.


I understand your position.

Rockjock01 wrote:
Doing it that way makes it appealing to run say a star of Omnis with elite pilots in a game where someone else fills the same slot with a mixed binary of garrison units of garrison quality.


How exactly does a C-Bill limit do that? I'm not sure that I understand. OmniMechs are almost always going to be more expensive because they frequently use XL Engines compared to many 2nd Line/Garrison 'Mechs which often use standard engines. If you make the C-Bill limit so high that it doesn't really impact the selection of an OmniMech force, then C-Bills aren't a concern.

Rockjock01 wrote:
I guess my version of BT always had an economic factor. If C-Bills are not a concern why not just field larger and larger forces? No reason for vehicles, or infantry at all.


In the real world, after a certain point, it becomes impractical for a player to run so many units. The reason some people will run vehicles and/or infantry is because they can operate effectively on a given battlefield and have a frequently lower Battle Value (BV) than many 'Mech designs.


Rockjock01 wrote:
We play different ways, in different styles. That is what is great about games, and I'll leave it at that.


Well said :)


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ] 

All times are UTC-04:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
American English Language Pack © Maël Soucaze