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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Notes: Go to this link and you'll understand why I won't allow strafing in any non-official BT game that I game mistress:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21911&p=246000&hilit=6%2C000+points+of+damage#p246000

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (presumably using TechManual rules)
tons noun(s)
100 desired tonnage
21.5 fusion 400 XL engine
0 heatsinks: 10
0 Structural Integrity: 6
12.5 fuel & pumps 975 points of fuel or
3 cockpit
0.5 a single point of standard armor per each of four locations
14.5 fire control computers
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers nose
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers aft

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (presumably using TechManual and Tactical Operations and Strategic Operations rules)
tons noun(s)
100 desired tonnage
21.25 fusion 400 XL engine
0 heatsinks: 10
0 Structural Integrity: 8
3 fuel & pumps 234 points of fuel
2 small cockpit
10.5 drone equipment & dronesensors
0.25 a single point of standard armor per each of four locations
14.5 fire control computers
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers nose
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers aft
0.25 cargo
100 tons total

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Last edited by Alayne Leung on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:03 am 
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if all those weapons are fired the Pilot dies instantly because of overheat.
72 Points of heat(only firing in one direction) - 10 HS = heat Level of 62
thats Pilot death and immediate shutdown.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Hi cobayashimaru,

During tournament game(s), a player won't care about overheating because of potential 6,000 damage points that a Crazey Strafey can do with its weapons during a strafing attack; and in non-tournament game(s), a Crazey Strafey would most likely be a drone, and so player(s) controlling Crazey Strafeys wouldn't care if they were destroyed after they've crashed because of all that heat causing them to go out of control.

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Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Of all the dumb things you post Chip, this is certainly one of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:55 am 
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Um, chihawk, I'm actually a friend of chip. And please clarify why you believe Total Warfare rules for strafing are "balanced". I've proven they're utterly unbalanced.

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Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Cobayashimaru has posted rather well why this is stupid.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:54 am 
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6,000 points of damage is enough to substantially damage many targets for the sacrifice of Crazy Strafey(s). A Crazey Strafey could probably take out a very much higher BVed mobile structure by doing a strafing attack against its center hexes parts to cause them to collapse other mobile structure hexes parts.

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Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Supreme Mugwump
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it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Village Drunk
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cobayashimaru wrote:
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5


We shouldn't let facts get in the way of his delusions. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:51 pm 
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snrdg101206 wrote:
Evening PDT chihawk and Alayne Leung,

This is two part post. Part 1 is for chihawk and Part 2 are comments concerning the aerospace fighter design.

chihawk wrote:
cobayashimaru wrote:
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5


We shouldn't let facts get in the way of his delusions. :lol:


I'm not sure what delusion is being referenced.

I have two copies of Classic BattleTech TechManual.

The first copy is a hardcover that I purchased about six months ago and the second is the PDF version I picked up a couple of days ago. The Master Engine Table in both copies is found on page 49 which lists the weight of a 400 XL fusion engine as 26.5 versus 21.5 tons.


Listen Chip...err....Alayne Leung....well, whomever you're pretending to be today...in the original post you listed the weight of the 400XL fusion engine as 21.25 tons.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:01 am 
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Never mind that your posting styles are virtually identical, the big issue you're going to have is I can see the IP addresses you post on from three different gaming sites...on only two of which do I still use the "chihawk" name.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:28 am 
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Good morning Tom, CDT.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure what delusion is being referenced.

Well actually I'm a friend of chip burcham. He and I meet here at library that he and I are at now to talk.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
I have two copies of Classic BattleTech TechManual.

The first copy is a hardcover that I purchased about six months ago and the second is the PDF version I picked up a couple of days ago. The Master Engine Table in both copies is found on page 49 which lists the weight of a 400 XL fusion engine as 26.5 versus 21.5 tons.

Yeah, that sounds correct; I must've misread a webpage listing (of another website) of the standard fusion 400 tonnage or it might've been incorrectly posted (I was sort of skeptical of that webpage listing).

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Part 2: Aerospace Fighter comments:

Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 187 Determine Structural Integrity

Fighters: The SI value of a conventional or aerospace fighter must equal the fighter’s Safe Thrust Rating or 10 percent of the fighter’s tonnage (rounded down), whichever value is higher. Fighters devote no mass to this structural integrity and may not voluntarily increase its value.

The aerospace fighter's structural integrity listed is 6 and 8. Under the above design rules 100 x 0.1 = 10 which is larger than either of the aerospace fighter's SI of 6 or 8 which is also the vessel's Safe Thrust Speed.


Yeah, I was using Aerodyne DropShuttle construction rules from AeroTech 2; the 6 is from max thrust and the 8 is overthrust (like 'Mech sprinting). Also, I read on another website years ago that TechManual didn’t change aerospace fighter construction rules; I'm must be too gullible or that person, that posted to that website didn't read TechManual rules very well). Theoretically, an aerospace fighter's SI structure should have mass because it uses its wheels to launch and land and uses other components to perform maneuvers.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 186 Determine Fuel Capacity

The Aerospace Fuel Table indicates that an aerospace fighter has 80 fuel points per ton.

The first Crazy Strafey is listed as having 975 fuel points. Dividing 975 by 80 yields 12.1875 tons of fuel. The TechManual smallest weight unit is 0.5 tons and the book does not mention any calculations for fuel pumps. By the TechManual 12.5 tons of fuel yield 1,000 fuel points.

The second Crazy Strafey is listed as having 234 fuel points. Dividing 234 by 80 yields 2.925 tons of fuel. By the TechManual 3 tons of fuel yield 240 fuel points.

I was using Strategic Operations fuel rules; 78 points of fuel plus 2% of total fuel tonnage of 80 points is approximately one ton of fuel & pumps, so 12.5 tons multiplied by 78 points of fuel = 975 fuel points

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Classic BattleTech TechManual pp. 190-193 Step 3 Add Armor

Page 190: Aerospace unit armor may be mounted in full- or half-ton lots.

The second Crazy Strafey is listed as using 0.25 tons of armor per armor facing, my search in the PDFs for Tactical Operation, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations have not found that quarter-ton lots of armor is a design option.

I think Tactical Operations and HMAero provide for fractional accounting rule that allows 0.25 tons of armor.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Classic BattleTech TechManual pp. 217 Fire Control Systems

Only IndustrialMechs and Support Vehicles may install advanced fire control systems (BattleMechs, ProtoMechs, Combat Vehicles, fighters, Small Craft and DropShips receive this system free).

I've checked in Tactical Operation, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations and did not find any indication that fire control systems in aerospace fighters have a tonnage requirement.

Again, I was using AeroTech 2 and I think HMAero could perhaps used to require fire control systems.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
To recap the 24 Inner Sphere Med. Laser carried in the nose arc and the 24 in the aft arc exceed the the limit of 5 weapons per nose, left-wing, right-wing, and aft arcs as indicated below.

Technical Manual hardcover and PDF Designing Aerospace Fighters:
Page 183 Space: For conventional and aerospace fighters, the space limits (weapon slots) is set at 5 weapons per arc (Nose, Left Wing, Right Wing, and Aft).

Page 196: Space: Aerospace unit fire control and power distribution systems limit the number of weapons that can be mounted in an arc. For fighters, this limit is set at 5 weapons per arc (less if the unit uses non-standard armor; see Add Armor, p. 190). This maximum limit may not be exceeded under these construction rules.

Yeah, I was using AeroTech 2 construction that I think did require fire control systems ;and as for more than 5 weapons, I think AeroTech 2 and HMAero could perhaps have originally allowed that for aerospace fighters.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Note that I may have not understood the rules correctly even after checking the examples used in the aerospace unit section of the TechManual which means I may be in error.

I’m sure you’ve comprehended current aerospace fighter construction rules; I was using older versions of them. I used "aerofighter" because the subject line when I sent that PM didn't allow me to fully type "aerospace fighter". Also, I was trying to point out the unbalancing flaws of strafing attack damage especially since BV and heat and ammo aren’t taken into account. I have designed revised versions of those two Crazy Strafey Aerospace Fighters as follows:

Note that double heat sinks, fuel & pumps, and armor can be removed or added at discretion of person designing version(s) of Crazy Strafey provided that said version(s) each are not more than 100 tons).

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
0 SI: 10
26.5 fusion 400 XXL
35 double heat sinks: 45 heat: 92 of thirty lasers & max thrust
4 fuel & pumps: 309
3 cockpit
0.5 two points of standard armor per each location
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 nose arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing for arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing for arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing aft arc
8 Inner Sphere targeting computer
100 total tons

Crazy Strafey Expendable Drone Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Tactical Operations & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
0 SI: 10
17.5 fusion 400 XXL
0 double heat sinks: 10 heat: 96 of thirty lasers & overthrust
5.5 fuel & pumps: 429
2 small cockpit
26.5 one hundred six points of standard armor per each location
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 nose arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing front arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing front arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing aft arc
8 Inner Sphere targeting computer
10.5 drone equipment & drone sensors
100 total tonnage

Let's also remember that the Advanced Ability Traits (Weapon Specialist & range switching & I think Ground Attack) from A Time of War should probably make strafing attacking to-hit rolls easier I think. Damage from all 30 Medium Lasers simultaneously during a strafing attack for five hexes during a single turn is: 5 damage points *(4 units plus structure)*5 hexes *30 Medium Lasers =3,750 damage points total in one Total Warfare turn. That's still :crazy: Damage from 20 Medium Lasers simultaneously during a strafing attack for five hexes during a single turn is: 5 damage points *(4 units plus structure)*5 hexes *20 Medium Lasers =2,500 damage points total in one Total Warfare turn provided that the wing aft arcs aren't used. That's still :crazy:

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Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Hi Tom,
(My first name is Alayne, but if you want to call me "Elayne" then maybe I'll become popular enough to join Elaine on CGTV,

Either I've forgotten the rules of aerospace fighter construction or I've misunderstood them. (I'm getting a new copy of TechManual later on provided that my local bookstore can order me a copy). Thank you for your clarifications. Apparently fractional accounting can be used for aerospace fighters (scroll down or search for "fractional accounting" on this link's following webpage).

http://www.heavymetalpro.com/HMAero_Revisions.htm

I do remember reading a topic years ago on I think HeavyMetal Program Discussion forum that Rick Raisley specifically explained how to have fractional accounting to another member, but search feature can't seem to locate that topic. (I think Rick Raisley basically said you're to select rules Level 3 when using HeavyMetal Aero and then select "Fractional Accounting" selection).

1. Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Fusion 400 XXL tonnage

On the first readout the engine is listed as being 26.5 tons and in the second readout the weight is 17.5 tons in Catalyst Game Labs Tactical Operations Mech Engine Type Modifier Table [Addendum] p. 381 an Inner Sphere XXL Fusion Engine has a Modifier of .25

Std. Fusion 400 Engine is 52.5 tons
XXL Fusion 400 Engine = 52.5 x 0.25 = 13.1 rounding to 13 or 13.5 tons


So you're saying that an Inner Sphere XXL fusion engine has a tonnage that is 1/4 xor 0.25 that of a standard fusion engine of same rating? If so, then that's wonderful.

2.a. I think 30 double heat sinks are better, but that's fine if you only want 25 for a Crazy Strafey. Theoretically, a Crazy Strafey flying at max thrust can travel farther, and while using Strategic Operations rules can evade better; but I understand why safe thrust is more beneficial (to have lower attacker movement modifier, but perhaps Crazy Strafey drone could compensate for its own attacker movement and evasive modifiers?

b. That overthrusting is theoretically like Sprinting MP from Tactical Operations (basically Safe Thrust multiplied by 2 like Walking MP multiplied by 2). Since a LAM can use Sprinting MP (I think), it should be capable of using overthrust when it's in aerospace fighter mode; and if a LAM can use overthrust in aerospace fighter mode, then an aerospace fighter (such as a Crazy Strafey) should be capable of using overthrust.

3. I prefer to include fuel pumps because I don't understand how an aerospace fighter can get its fuel into combustion chambers without the use of pumps.

4. Just so you know, I designed the Crazy Strafeies to each use standard armor.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Total Warfare Strafing:

1. A unit making this type of attack chooses from one to five consecutive hexes along the attack path. These hexes must lie in a straight line.

2. The unit may fire one, some or all of its non-ammo-dependent direct-fire energy and pulse weapons when strafing. The player must roll for every target, hostile or friendly, in all of the chosen hexes. See Modified To-Hit Number, at left, to determine the target number for a strafing attack.

3. The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target. Apply weapon hits using the standard rules for the appropriate unit type. No matter how many targets are attacked, each weapon only fires once for the purposes of heat and ammunition tracking. Use the column of the appropriate Hit Location Table that corresponds to the attack direction, based on the direction from which the fighter entered the target’s hex, rather than the fighter’s position at the end of the Movement Phase.


Wait a minute, I thought #1 specifically said that the unit may fire one, some or all of its non-ammo dependent direct-fire energy and pulse weapons when strafing. So why say "heat and ammunition tracking" instead of just saying "heat tracking"?

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
The rules suggest that the speed of the fighter across one to five 30 meter ground hexes acts like firing weapons once at a target in Aerospace combat.

Using 5 left wing medium lasers + 5 nose medium lasers + 5 right wing lasers the fighter has to determine the Modified To-Hit Number for each firing laser at every target, friendly or hostile, in the path being strafed.
Under normal ground combat and aerospace rules weapons that miss the target are no longer tracked to see if they might hit something else down range and do damage. In Strafing the rules do track that the energy from each laser continues to move down range the designated number of hexes before disappearing. Unfortunately, the wording suggests that the laser that hit a target will continue to go down range.

My solution in the case of 15 lasers a hit reduces the number of lasers that are used on the next target.


I don't think so. #3 says: The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target. You'll notice that it says "rolls" instead of roll. I think there might be a strafing example in Total Warfare, but I'm not sure.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
In hex 1 there are two targets. The first target in the hex I have to roll 15 times to determine if I got a hit. One of the 15 lasers hit the target doing 5 points of damage. The second target has to avoid being hit by 14 lasers. Each hex in the strafing path repeats the cycle until the attack is done.

The firing of fifteen medium lasers generate 3 x 15 = 45 heat points and each does 5 points of damage on a successful To-Hit roll. However, I will reduce the number of weapons attacking the following targets by the number that succeeded in hitting a target.

From Strategic Operations pp. 235-236,
"p. 235: Strafing Attacks: In a strafing run, the craft fires its weapons repeatedly at the ground to saturate two contiguous hexes. A Unit making a strafing attack chooses two target hexes (which must be adjacent and follow the flight path of the aerospace Unit) and makes attacks against every Element (friend or foe) in both hexes. The attacking Unit must be at low altitude.

p. 236: Damage (Strafing Attacks): A successful Strafing attack delivers half of the attacking Element’s short range Damage Value (rounded normally, to a minimum of 1) to every Element in the hex struck by the attack. If overheating modifies a Strafing attack, add the Overheat Value to the short range Damage Value before reducing the damage by half. A Strafing attack that hits an Element from the rear delivers 1 additional point of damage, which is also added to the base Damage Value before halving takes place."

The rules modify the Total Warfare rules but I still not sure how to handle the heat build-up.


#3 above specifically says: No matter how many targets are attacked, each weapon only fires once for the purposes of heat and ammunition tracking.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
However, the part about saturating the ground being strafed is, in my opinion, what one sees in the video clips of strafing on the Internet or in war movies/programs showing ground air-to-ground attacks.

Hopefully my understanding of the rules in Total Warfare for strafing is not totally out to lunch and I'll use them until I can figure out the modifications in Strategic Operation.

Another way to explain Total Warfare strafing rules on pp. 243 would be to fire a single shell with pellets from a shotgun. The non-ammunition using direct fire energy weapons in my opinion are the pellets and any the make the To-Hit Number does damage to a single target any that mess continues on until it either hits the target or goes out of the last strafing run hex.


I don't think that's how strafing "works", but I could be incorrect because #3 above says, "The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target.". I think that either a way more thorough example of strafing must be provided, xor omit strafing rules from Total Warfare altogether and perhaps republish them in Tactical Operations.

Here are the revised Crazy Strafeies (they're each now equipped with 5 Inner Sphere medium pulse lasers per firing arc; Clan medium pulse lasers have double range, though):

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
3 standard cockpit
0 SI of 10
26.5 fusion 400 XXL engine
20 double heat sinks: 30 ; heat: 62 of 30 medium pulse lasers plus 2 heat Max Thrust
6 fuel: 480
6 twenty-four points of standard armor per each location
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers nose arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers left arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers right arc
8 targeting computer
100 total tonnage

Crazy Strafey Expendable Drone Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Tactical Operations & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
2 small cockpit
0 SI: 10
10.5 drone equipment & drone sensors
17.5 fusion XXL engine
23 double heat sinks: 33; heat: 69 of 30 medium pulse lasers and Overthrust MP (like Sprinting MP)
6.12 fuel & pumps: 480
0.25 one point of standard armor per location
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers nose arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers left arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers right arc
8 targeting computer
2.63 extra fuel or armor per player's choice(s)
100.00 total tonnage

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


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