Welcome to the HeavyMetalPro Forums

It is currently Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:18 pm

All times are UTC-04:00




Post new topic  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:33 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 99
Notes: Go to this link and you'll understand why I won't allow strafing in any non-official BT game that I game mistress:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21911&p=246000&hilit=6%2C000+points+of+damage#p246000

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (presumably using TechManual rules)
tons noun(s)
100 desired tonnage
21.5 fusion 400 XL engine
0 heatsinks: 10
0 Structural Integrity: 6
12.5 fuel & pumps 975 points of fuel or
3 cockpit
0.5 a single point of standard armor per each of four locations
14.5 fire control computers
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers nose
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers aft

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (presumably using TechManual and Tactical Operations and Strategic Operations rules)
tons noun(s)
100 desired tonnage
21.25 fusion 400 XL engine
0 heatsinks: 10
0 Structural Integrity: 8
3 fuel & pumps 234 points of fuel
2 small cockpit
10.5 drone equipment & dronesensors
0.25 a single point of standard armor per each of four locations
14.5 fire control computers
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers nose
24 Inner Sphere 24 medium lasers aft
0.25 cargo
100 tons total

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


Last edited by Alayne Leung on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:03 am 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3138
if all those weapons are fired the Pilot dies instantly because of overheat.
72 Points of heat(only firing in one direction) - 10 HS = heat Level of 62
thats Pilot death and immediate shutdown.

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:14 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 99
Hi cobayashimaru,

During tournament game(s), a player won't care about overheating because of potential 6,000 damage points that a Crazey Strafey can do with its weapons during a strafing attack; and in non-tournament game(s), a Crazey Strafey would most likely be a drone, and so player(s) controlling Crazey Strafeys wouldn't care if they were destroyed after they've crashed because of all that heat causing them to go out of control.

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:01 pm 
Offline
Village Drunk
Village Drunk

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 4079
Location: Worcester, MA
Of all the dumb things you post Chip, this is certainly one of them.

_________________
When life gives you lemons, throw them back and ask for cookies.
http://210darryl.wordpress.com/
Image Image


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:55 am 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 99
Um, chihawk, I'm actually a friend of chip. And please clarify why you believe Total Warfare rules for strafing are "balanced". I've proven they're utterly unbalanced.

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:13 pm 
Offline
Village Drunk
Village Drunk

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 4079
Location: Worcester, MA
Cobayashimaru has posted rather well why this is stupid.

_________________
When life gives you lemons, throw them back and ask for cookies.
http://210darryl.wordpress.com/
Image Image


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:54 am 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 99
6,000 points of damage is enough to substantially damage many targets for the sacrifice of Crazy Strafey(s). A Crazey Strafey could probably take out a very much higher BVed mobile structure by doing a strafing attack against its center hexes parts to cause them to collapse other mobile structure hexes parts.

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:13 am 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Evening PDT Alayne Leung,

Looking at the procedure in the Technical Manual for Designing Aerospace Units pp. 182-199 I did not get out of Step 1: Design the Chassis since there appears to be too many lasers being carried by the design.

Technical Manual hardcover and PDF Designing Aerospace Fighters:
Page 183 Space: For conventional and aerospace fighters, the space limits (weapon slots) is set at 5 weapons per arc (Nose, Left Wing, Right Wing, and Aft).

Page 196: Space: Aerospace unit fire control and power distribution systems limit the number of weapons that can be mounted in an arc. For fighters, this limit is set at 5 weapons per arc (less if the unit uses non-standard armor; see Add Armor, p. 190). This maximum limit may not be exceeded under these construction rules.

If I'm reading the Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter datasheet correctly the twenty-four lasers in the nose and and twenty-four aft arcs exceed the limit of five by nineteen in each location. This means that the 6,000 damage points is not possible.


Total Warfare and Strategic Operations agree that strafing is conducted as a single attack on all friendly and hostile units in the strafing path. Each weapon fired has a separate To-Hit Number for each target, friendly or hostile, in the strafing attack path of 1 to 5 hexes. In TW a strafing attack is conducted at Low Altitude with a map scale of 1 hex equal to 500 meters in a 10 second turn. The TW map scale is 1 hex equal to 30 meters.

For ease of play the 1 to 5 ground hexes are within a single low altitude 500 meter hex making the firing of the lasers a single event that rises the heat level for each weapon fired.

The design is invalid based on exceeding the maximum number of weapons that can be installed in the nose and aft arcs. The maximum weapons that the design could support is twenty.

I am not in agreement with the exclusion of direct fire ballistic weapons based on the real world use of them being used to strafe ground targets.

The above is based on my review of the Strafing rules in FASA, FanPro/WKGames, and Catalyst Game Labs books, which I hope is not out to lunch.

Please note that I sent comments for the first link of Here's a reason why I refuse to play with strafing rules because they're very unbalancing:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21911&p=246000&hilit=6%2C000+points+of+damage#p246000

via your gmail account and by PM I hope you get both items and that they make sense.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:12 pm 
Offline
Supreme Mugwump
Supreme Mugwump

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3138
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5

_________________
typos and spelling-mistakes are property of the finder. english is not my mother-tongue.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:56 pm 
Offline
Village Drunk
Village Drunk

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 4079
Location: Worcester, MA
cobayashimaru wrote:
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5


We shouldn't let facts get in the way of his delusions. :lol:

_________________
When life gives you lemons, throw them back and ask for cookies.
http://210darryl.wordpress.com/
Image Image


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:32 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Evening PDT chihawk and Alayne Leung,

This is two part post. Part 1 is for chihawk and Part 2 are comments concerning the aerospace fighter design.

chihawk wrote:
cobayashimaru wrote:
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5


We shouldn't let facts get in the way of his delusions. :lol:


I'm not sure what delusion is being referenced.

I have two copies of Classic BattleTech TechManual.

The first copy is a hardcover that I purchased about six months ago and the second is the PDF version I picked up a couple of days ago. The Master Engine Table in both copies is found on page 49 which lists the weight of a 400 XL fusion engine as 26.5 versus 21.5 tons.

Part 2: Aerospace Fighter comments:

Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 187 Determine Structural Integrity

Fighters: The SI value of a conventional or aerospace fighter must equal the fighter’s Safe Thrust Rating or 10 percent of the fighter’s tonnage (rounded down), whichever value is higher. Fighters devote no mass to this structural integrity and may not voluntarily increase its value.

The aerospace fighter's structural integrity listed is 6 and 8. Under the above design rules 100 x 0.1 = 10 which is larger than either of the aerospace fighter's SI of 6 or 8 which is also the vessel's Safe Thrust Speed.

Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 186 Determine Fuel Capacity

The Aerospace Fuel Table indicates that an aerospace fighter has 80 fuel points per ton.

The first Crazy Strafey is listed as having 975 fuel points. Dividing 975 by 80 yields 12.1875 tons of fuel. The TechManual smallest weight unit is 0.5 tons and the book does not mention any calculations for fuel pumps. By the TechManual 12.5 tons of fuel yield 1,000 fuel points.

The second Crazy Strafey is listed as having 234 fuel points. Dividing 234 by 80 yields 2.925 tons of fuel. By the TechManual 3 tons of fuel yield 240 fuel points.

Classic BattleTech TechManual pp. 190-193 Step 3 Add Armor

Page 190: Aerospace unit armor may be mounted in full- or half-ton lots.

The second Crazy Strafey is listed as using 0.25 tons of armor per armor facing, my search in the PDFs for Tactical Operation, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations have not found that quarter-ton lots of armor is a design option.

Classic BattleTech TechManual pp. 217 Fire Control Systems

Only IndustrialMechs and Support Vehicles may install advanced fire control systems (BattleMechs, ProtoMechs, Combat Vehicles, fighters, Small Craft and DropShips receive this system free).

I've checked in Tactical Operation, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations and did not find any indication that fire control systems in aerospace fighters have a tonnage requirement.

To recap the 24 Inner Sphere Med. Laser carried in the nose arc and the 24 in the aft arc exceed the the limit of 5 weapons per nose, left-wing, right-wing, and aft arcs as indicated below.

Technical Manual hardcover and PDF Designing Aerospace Fighters:
Page 183 Space: For conventional and aerospace fighters, the space limits (weapon slots) is set at 5 weapons per arc (Nose, Left Wing, Right Wing, and Aft).

Page 196: Space: Aerospace unit fire control and power distribution systems limit the number of weapons that can be mounted in an arc. For fighters, this limit is set at 5 weapons per arc (less if the unit uses non-standard armor; see Add Armor, p. 190). This maximum limit may not be exceeded under these construction rules.

Note that I may have not understood the rules correctly even after checking the examples used in the aerospace unit section of the TechManual which means I may be in error.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:51 pm 
Offline
Village Drunk
Village Drunk

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 4079
Location: Worcester, MA
snrdg101206 wrote:
Evening PDT chihawk and Alayne Leung,

This is two part post. Part 1 is for chihawk and Part 2 are comments concerning the aerospace fighter design.

chihawk wrote:
cobayashimaru wrote:
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5


We shouldn't let facts get in the way of his delusions. :lol:


I'm not sure what delusion is being referenced.

I have two copies of Classic BattleTech TechManual.

The first copy is a hardcover that I purchased about six months ago and the second is the PDF version I picked up a couple of days ago. The Master Engine Table in both copies is found on page 49 which lists the weight of a 400 XL fusion engine as 26.5 versus 21.5 tons.


Listen Chip...err....Alayne Leung....well, whomever you're pretending to be today...in the original post you listed the weight of the 400XL fusion engine as 21.25 tons.

_________________
When life gives you lemons, throw them back and ask for cookies.
http://210darryl.wordpress.com/
Image Image


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:46 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Hello chihawk,

chihawk wrote:
snrdg101206 wrote:
Evening PDT chihawk and Alayne Leung,

This is two part post. Part 1 is for chihawk and Part 2 are comments concerning the aerospace fighter design.

chihawk wrote:
cobayashimaru wrote:
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5


We shouldn't let facts get in the way of his delusions. :lol:


I'm not sure what delusion is being referenced.

I have two copies of Classic BattleTech TechManual.

The first copy is a hardcover that I purchased about six months ago and the second is the PDF version I picked up a couple of days ago. The Master Engine Table in both copies is found on page 49 which lists the weight of a 400 XL fusion engine as 26.5 versus 21.5 tons.


Listen Chip...err....Alayne Leung....well, whomever you're pretending to be today...in the original post you listed the weight of the 400XL fusion engine as 21.25 tons.


I have no idea who Alayne Leung is other than what the profile link shows me. Alayne Leung provided a link to the forums at WarGamerAU to review Chip's rule revisions. I have no idea who Chip is nor have I been, that I know of anyway, in contact with the person.

Your comment of
chihawk wrote:
cobayashimaru wrote:
it seems a 400 xl engine is 26.5 tons, not 21.5


We shouldn't let facts get in the way of his delusions. :lol:

is unclear as to who is having delusions cobayashimaru or Alayne Leung. Further, I had no idea who the reference of "his delusions" was about, however with this reply I am guessing the individual is Chip.

No, I did not indicate that a 400 XL Fusion weighed 21.5 that was the originator of the post. I did note that per the Classic BattleTech TechManual that the maximum number of weapons that can be installed in the nose, left wing, right wing, and aft arc is 5 in each arc.

cobayashimaru added the information that a 400 XL Fusion weighs 26.5 tons. In my combined reply to you and Alayne Leung I provided supporting information confirming the, as indicated by cobayashimaru, the installed 400 XL Fusion engine weighs 26.5 tons.

Next, I have noticed at least on topics posted by Alayne Leung your replies have been in my opinion less than helpful and barely civil.

Please check out my profile instead of assuming that I am Chip, Alayne Leung, or someone else. Crap, checking my profile using the Profile button I have discovered that the only way to contact me is via PM. My PM replies are taking over 24 hours to leave the outbox. Please contact me at tmr0195@comcast.net to continue this conversation about who I am.

Respectfully,

Thomas M. Rux STS1/SS USN Retired

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:01 am 
Offline
Village Drunk
Village Drunk

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 4079
Location: Worcester, MA
Never mind that your posting styles are virtually identical, the big issue you're going to have is I can see the IP addresses you post on from three different gaming sites...on only two of which do I still use the "chihawk" name.

_________________
When life gives you lemons, throw them back and ask for cookies.
http://210darryl.wordpress.com/
Image Image


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:11 am 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Morning PDT Alayne Leung,

This aerospace fighter design is in my opinion an invalid design under FASA, FanPro, and Catalyst Game Labs BattleTech rules as indicated below. I hope that my understanding of the two rules is correct and supports my opinion.

1. The design has 24 lasers which exceeds the total weapons that can be mounted on an aerospace fighter per Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 183:

Quote:
Space
Unlike Combat and Support vehicles, aerospace units derive their space limits (weapon slots) from their unit type rather than their weight. For conventional and aerospace fighters, this limit is set at 5 weapons per arc (Nose, Left Wing, Right Wing and Aft). Though the use of certain armor types may reduce this number, construction can never increase this quantity.


2. My understanding is that the tournament using the design is being played by the rules from Total Warfare and/or other applicable rules in the other core rulebooks. From Total Warfare pp. 158-161 the rules for Heat Points is discussed. The heat points rules applicable to Aerospace Units are provided on pp. 160-161. My review of the other rulebooks did not, though I may have missed the reference, change the Heat Effects rules in Total Warfare.

Quote:
HEAT EFFECTS pp. 160-161
Aerospace fighters and small craft follow the same basic rules as ’Mechs for heat effects on weapon attacks, shutdown, Aerospace fighters and small craft follow the same basic rules as ’Mechs for heat effects on weapon attacks, shutdown, ammunition and pilots, using target numbers and Avoid rolls based on the Heat Scales found on the Aerospace Fighter and Small Craft record sheets.


As cobayashimaru indicated, supported by Total Warfare and the Heat Scale and Heat Data section of the Aerospace Fighter Record Sheet,

Quote:
if all those weapons are fired the Pilot dies instantly because of overheat. 72 Points of heat(only firing in one direction) - 10 HS = heat Level of 62 thats Pilot death and immediate shutdown.


At 30 heat points the fusion engine automatically shuts down.

At 27 heat points the pilot has to roll a 9+ to avoid damage.

At 25 heat points the pilot has to roll a 10+ to avoid Random Movement.

Based on the official rules, real world failures of items self-destructing when exceeding design parameters, and common sense the Crazy Strafey is automatically destroyed in a spectacular fashion when all the lasers are fired at once.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:49 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Hello chihawk,

My apologies to the other forum members for continuing this off topic discussion of proving identities with a moderator. Unfortunately, my outgoing PMs are rather slow and my attempts a contacting this person by other means has not been successful either.

chihawk wrote:
Never mind that your posting styles are virtually identical, the big issue you're going to have is I can see the IP addresses you post on from three different gaming sites...on only two of which do I still use the "chihawk" name.


Alayne Leung and what I have seen of your posts begin with a salutation of any sort or identifying who the reply is for.

Next, when I post comments they have supporting information from the official source books with the text I am quoting included, having a PDF copy makes it much easier to include the exact information being used and when I do not have a PDF I try very hard to type the information exactly as printed.

Neither you or Alayne Leung that I can see bother with citing the official source books.

As for Chip the only material I have really looked at is the LAM rule revisions from the link provided by Alayne Leung to WarGamesAU BattleTech forum, which I opened an account but have not made a post.

That material does not resemble my style of posting here, which started on 10/12/2006, or on other game forums like Citizens of the Imperium, Mongoose Traveller, Dream Pod 9 Heavy Gear/Jovain Chronicles, ICE Space Master, the BT forum at http://bg.battletech.com/. On Yahoo Groups I have access to CT Striker, ct-starships, megatraveller, deckplans, HeavyMetalPro, two Renegade Legion sites, MGT-Aids. There are other game sites that I have accounts to their forums.

I think it would be stupid for me to open a new account posting material like the fighter design in this topic thread and then post from another account identifying what is wrong with by providing the exact source information.

I have offered a means to contact me off the forums which you have declined citing that based on searching IP addresses you found that I post on at least three other game sites somehow proves that I am pretending to be two other people. Since I am not as capable in searching IP addresses and my efforts to find you on the forums I am a member would you please identify the sites that we both are members of so that I can verify the chihawk member name. I've tried to find the name on the Traveller related sites, SpaceMaster, Dream Pod 9, the forum on http://bg.battletech.com/ without success, would you please contact me with the site nameusing the email address provided earlier.

I will try not to make any further replies in this topic on proving that I am not the Chip character or Alayne Leung since I do not wish to be sanctioned in some way that bars me from posting on the HeavyMetalPro forums.

I have enough problems being a retired bubblehead, a.k.a. boat/submarine sailor trying to be two other people would be very difficult.

At approximately 2:50 PM PDT I realized that chihawk's research indicated that the three game sites found did not use the identifier of snrdg101206.

One of my oddities is that many of my user names on the different forums is based off of snrdg. When using snrdg the digits represent the day I signed up for the forum. There are variations such as SonarDog, Sonardog, tmr, TomR, sonartech1st, SnrdogTom. My user or log-in names are either variations of being a sonar technician coupled with the early days of submarines when the surface navy considered submarine sailors to being nothing more that pirates and that in a lot of pirate movies scurvy dogs. On two sites, that I can find in my badly maintained master log of site user names and passwords, I have used my initials or one of the nicknames for Thomas and the initial of my last name. IIRC my profiles have my location as Roy, WA, but there might a listing for Tacoma, Seattle, and/or Puyallup.

I have no information on Chip other than the link provided by Alayne Leung. The only information I have on Alayne Leung is what I see in her profile and information in the sent PMs which is a lot less than what my profile for snrdg101206.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:25 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Morning Alayne Leung,

On September 15, 2017 I received your PM Re: 100 ton aerofighter...; you'll critique SHOAG topic? which I replied to using PM which is time stamped as September 16, 2017 12:21 AM. The PM is still in my the Outbox. It the message is still in the Outbox on 9/19/2017 I am going to clear the outbox and give up on using HevayMetalPro forums PM

To nitpick there is technically no BT unit listed as "aerofighter" that I found in any of my BT resource library. However, the BT "conventional fighter" could be listed as an "aero" fighter since it is restricted to flight in the air.

In your PM reply on 09/15/2017 PM you maintained that the use of the strafing rules will continue to be non-playable in game sessions you are refereeing. The publisher's of BT have stated that the referee has the final say in what is allowed or not allowed in the session.

I have looked at the SHOAG but I am unable to provide feedback on it. My comments on the Crazy Strafey Aerospace fighter has been done using my library BT resources and I hopefully have correctly understood the rules. If there are official BT rules for constructing the SHOAG please send me an email with the book and page number.

Update:
I ran the Crazy Strafey presumably using TechManual rules through my copy of MeavyMetal Aero v1.06 R7. The parameters are Rules Level 2, Tech Base Inner Sphere, Design Standard, and Year 3657.

Trying to save the file the error message generated is "The Nose weapon arc has to many weapons (limit is 5)". Correcting the nose to five and leaving the aft weapon arc at 24 generated "The Nose weapon arc has to many weapons (limit is 5)".

The application rounds the 12.5 tons of fuel to 12.

The tons left without the 14.5 tons of fire control computers is 9.5 tons, adding the fire control computer tons the fighter weighs 105 tons.

The second fighter presumably using TechManual, Tactical Operations, and Strategic Operations rules. The TechManual, p. 54, allows armor to be installed in 1-ton and 0.5-ton lots. My review of Tactical and Strategic operations, I may have missed the reference, did not show that armor could be installed in 0.25-ton lots. Changing the armor ton value to 0.25 in Heavy Metal Aero the entry was rounded to zero.

My copy of HeavyMetal Aero does not have the small cockpit, drones, in addition to the fire control computers. With the systems available the second Crazy Strafey has 10-tons left over, unfortunately the 25 tons of drones and fire control computers less the 1 ton returned for the small cockpit make the fighter's final weight as 124-tons.

I also the applications of Heavy HeavyMetal Pro, Vee, Lite, and BattleArmor. I'll have to check to see if they have been updated and if they have do the updates.

Update 9/18/17 21:58 PDT

I updated my applications and have not found entries for fire control computers or the drone equipment and drone sensors.

Though I did find information on drones in Strategic Operations p. 348 which may be what is mentioned in the second Crazy Strafey design. I am not sure why drones are being carried.

The only information I can find for Fire Control Computers is in my copy of Interstellar Operations Beta p. 45 Universal Technology Advancement Table. I'm not finding any other information on fire control computers in the source book.

In summary the Crazy Strafey is in my opinion based on the information presented in the BT core rulebooks not a viable design as presented.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:28 am 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 99
Good morning Tom, CDT.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure what delusion is being referenced.

Well actually I'm a friend of chip burcham. He and I meet here at library that he and I are at now to talk.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
I have two copies of Classic BattleTech TechManual.

The first copy is a hardcover that I purchased about six months ago and the second is the PDF version I picked up a couple of days ago. The Master Engine Table in both copies is found on page 49 which lists the weight of a 400 XL fusion engine as 26.5 versus 21.5 tons.

Yeah, that sounds correct; I must've misread a webpage listing (of another website) of the standard fusion 400 tonnage or it might've been incorrectly posted (I was sort of skeptical of that webpage listing).

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Part 2: Aerospace Fighter comments:

Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 187 Determine Structural Integrity

Fighters: The SI value of a conventional or aerospace fighter must equal the fighter’s Safe Thrust Rating or 10 percent of the fighter’s tonnage (rounded down), whichever value is higher. Fighters devote no mass to this structural integrity and may not voluntarily increase its value.

The aerospace fighter's structural integrity listed is 6 and 8. Under the above design rules 100 x 0.1 = 10 which is larger than either of the aerospace fighter's SI of 6 or 8 which is also the vessel's Safe Thrust Speed.


Yeah, I was using Aerodyne DropShuttle construction rules from AeroTech 2; the 6 is from max thrust and the 8 is overthrust (like 'Mech sprinting). Also, I read on another website years ago that TechManual didn’t change aerospace fighter construction rules; I'm must be too gullible or that person, that posted to that website didn't read TechManual rules very well). Theoretically, an aerospace fighter's SI structure should have mass because it uses its wheels to launch and land and uses other components to perform maneuvers.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 186 Determine Fuel Capacity

The Aerospace Fuel Table indicates that an aerospace fighter has 80 fuel points per ton.

The first Crazy Strafey is listed as having 975 fuel points. Dividing 975 by 80 yields 12.1875 tons of fuel. The TechManual smallest weight unit is 0.5 tons and the book does not mention any calculations for fuel pumps. By the TechManual 12.5 tons of fuel yield 1,000 fuel points.

The second Crazy Strafey is listed as having 234 fuel points. Dividing 234 by 80 yields 2.925 tons of fuel. By the TechManual 3 tons of fuel yield 240 fuel points.

I was using Strategic Operations fuel rules; 78 points of fuel plus 2% of total fuel tonnage of 80 points is approximately one ton of fuel & pumps, so 12.5 tons multiplied by 78 points of fuel = 975 fuel points

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Classic BattleTech TechManual pp. 190-193 Step 3 Add Armor

Page 190: Aerospace unit armor may be mounted in full- or half-ton lots.

The second Crazy Strafey is listed as using 0.25 tons of armor per armor facing, my search in the PDFs for Tactical Operation, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations have not found that quarter-ton lots of armor is a design option.

I think Tactical Operations and HMAero provide for fractional accounting rule that allows 0.25 tons of armor.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Classic BattleTech TechManual pp. 217 Fire Control Systems

Only IndustrialMechs and Support Vehicles may install advanced fire control systems (BattleMechs, ProtoMechs, Combat Vehicles, fighters, Small Craft and DropShips receive this system free).

I've checked in Tactical Operation, Strategic Operations, and Interstellar Operations and did not find any indication that fire control systems in aerospace fighters have a tonnage requirement.

Again, I was using AeroTech 2 and I think HMAero could perhaps used to require fire control systems.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
To recap the 24 Inner Sphere Med. Laser carried in the nose arc and the 24 in the aft arc exceed the the limit of 5 weapons per nose, left-wing, right-wing, and aft arcs as indicated below.

Technical Manual hardcover and PDF Designing Aerospace Fighters:
Page 183 Space: For conventional and aerospace fighters, the space limits (weapon slots) is set at 5 weapons per arc (Nose, Left Wing, Right Wing, and Aft).

Page 196: Space: Aerospace unit fire control and power distribution systems limit the number of weapons that can be mounted in an arc. For fighters, this limit is set at 5 weapons per arc (less if the unit uses non-standard armor; see Add Armor, p. 190). This maximum limit may not be exceeded under these construction rules.

Yeah, I was using AeroTech 2 construction that I think did require fire control systems ;and as for more than 5 weapons, I think AeroTech 2 and HMAero could perhaps have originally allowed that for aerospace fighters.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Note that I may have not understood the rules correctly even after checking the examples used in the aerospace unit section of the TechManual which means I may be in error.

I’m sure you’ve comprehended current aerospace fighter construction rules; I was using older versions of them. I used "aerofighter" because the subject line when I sent that PM didn't allow me to fully type "aerospace fighter". Also, I was trying to point out the unbalancing flaws of strafing attack damage especially since BV and heat and ammo aren’t taken into account. I have designed revised versions of those two Crazy Strafey Aerospace Fighters as follows:

Note that double heat sinks, fuel & pumps, and armor can be removed or added at discretion of person designing version(s) of Crazy Strafey provided that said version(s) each are not more than 100 tons).

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
0 SI: 10
26.5 fusion 400 XXL
35 double heat sinks: 45 heat: 92 of thirty lasers & max thrust
4 fuel & pumps: 309
3 cockpit
0.5 two points of standard armor per each location
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 nose arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing for arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing for arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing aft arc
8 Inner Sphere targeting computer
100 total tons

Crazy Strafey Expendable Drone Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Tactical Operations & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
0 SI: 10
17.5 fusion 400 XXL
0 double heat sinks: 10 heat: 96 of thirty lasers & overthrust
5.5 fuel & pumps: 429
2 small cockpit
26.5 one hundred six points of standard armor per each location
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 nose arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing front arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing front arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing aft arc
8 Inner Sphere targeting computer
10.5 drone equipment & drone sensors
100 total tonnage

Let's also remember that the Advanced Ability Traits (Weapon Specialist & range switching & I think Ground Attack) from A Time of War should probably make strafing attacking to-hit rolls easier I think. Damage from all 30 Medium Lasers simultaneously during a strafing attack for five hexes during a single turn is: 5 damage points *(4 units plus structure)*5 hexes *30 Medium Lasers =3,750 damage points total in one Total Warfare turn. That's still :crazy: Damage from 20 Medium Lasers simultaneously during a strafing attack for five hexes during a single turn is: 5 damage points *(4 units plus structure)*5 hexes *20 Medium Lasers =2,500 damage points total in one Total Warfare turn provided that the wing aft arcs aren't used. That's still :crazy:

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:49 am 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Hello Elayne Leung,

Thank you for providing the information that the aerospace fighter being discussed is constructed using the out of date AeroTech 2 rule book and mixing in the rules from Catalyst Game Labs/Topps BattleTech rules.

My advice is to use the rules published by only company.

From FASA AeroTech 2 p. 47 and FanPro AeroTech 2 Revised edition p. 66
Weapon Limits first paragraph second sentence:

"Fighters can mount up to five weapons in each arc (a fighter equipped with ferro-aluminum armor may only mount four weapon on each wing)."

The limit of five weapons is the same as written in the TechManual. The revised design cannot have five forward and five rear firing weapons in each wing.

HeavyMetal Aero follows either AeroTech or AeroTech 2 construction rules.

My understanding of the rules on p. 66 is that craft larger than fighters can exceed the limits on the maximum number weapons that can be installed must increase their fire control tonnage.

I was not able to find any mention in AeroTech 2 requiring that fighters have targeting computers. However, FanPro Classic BattleTech Master Rules Revised Edition p. 148 allows the optional use of targeting computers. The Inner Sphere model requires 1 ton and 1 critical slot per 4 tons of Inner Sphere direct-fire weaponry carried or per 5 tons of Clan direct-fire weaponry.

In summary the revised design still has issues and suggest that they be designed using either AeroTech or Catalyst Game Labs/Topps rules not trying to merge the two.

I have complied a text document of the strafing rules which shows that in FASA 1690 BattleTech Compendium The Rules of Warfare they are similar to those listed in AeroTech 2 and the Catalyst Game Labs' rule books.

Update 09/23/17 12:36 PM PDT

I have HeavyMetal Aero v1.06R7 and when I input 0.25 in the Armor tab's Tons entry box the number rounds to 0. Inserting .75 in the box the tons round to 1. The construction rules in all the rule books I have from FASA, FanPro, and Catalyst Game Labs agree that armor installed in a combination of 0.5 ton and 1 ton lots.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:31 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Morning PDT Alayne Leung,

Here are additional comments and clarifications to those that I may or may not have made

Alayne Leung wrote:
Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Strategic Operations rules)


1. Fusion 400 XXL tonnage

On the first readout the engine is listed as being 26.5 tons and in the second readout the weight is 17.5 tons in Catalyst Game Labs Tactical Operations Mech Engine Type Modifier Table [Addendum] p. 381 an Inner Sphere XXL Fusion Engine has a Modifier of .25

Std. Fusion 400 Engine is 52.5 tons
XXL Fusion 400 Engine = 52.5 x 0.25 = 13.1 rounding to 13 or 13.5 tons

2. Double Heat Sinks
a. On the first readout the fighter has 35 double heat sinks: 45 heat: 92 of thirty lasers & max thrust

Catalyst Game Labs Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 193
"Conventional fighters may only use single (standard) heat sinks. Aerospace fighters, Small Craft and DropShips may use standard (single) or double heat sinks. Aerospace units constructed under these rules may not combine heat sinks of different types. If the designer chooses standard (single) heat sinks for a unit, the unit’s bonus “weight-free” sinks are automatically considered standard heat sinks; if double heat sinks are chosen, the bonus sinks are considered double heat sinks."

My calculation below is based on the 10 free engine heat sinks plus 25 more heat sinks.

35 Double Heats dissipate 35 x 2 = 70 heat points

The weapons rules for conventional and aerospace fighters allow a maximum of 5 weapons in each arc. Conventional and aerospace fighters arcs are: nose, left wing, right wing, and aft. If a conventional fighter or aerospace fighter uses ferro-aluminum armor each wing can mount only 4 weapons. Since the fighter mounts 5 weapons the fighter appears to be using standard armor.

A medium laser generates 3 heat points. The fighter carries 5 medium lasers per arc for a total of 5 x 4 = 20 which generate a total of 20 x 3 = 60 heat points.

I am not sure why the fighter would be going in at max. thrust, but I think 35 double heat sinks cover the heat build-up.

b. The second readout the fighter has 0 double heat sinks: 10 heat: 92 of thirty lasers & overthrust

I believe that the listing should be 10 double heat sinks: 20 heat: 92 of thirty lasers & overthrust should be changed Max. Thrust.

3. Fuel, fuel pumps, and thrust points

Catalyst Game Labs Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 186
"All aerospace units burn fuel by Thrust Points. The number of “fuel points” provided per ton is shown for all fighters, Small Craft and DropShip units on the Aerospace Fuel Table at right. This value is based on the unit’s type and its total weight. Regardless of unit type, fuel may only be added in full or half-ton lots. Furthermore, an additional 2 percent of weight applies to all non-fighter aerospace units, to reflect the weight of fuel tanks and pumps (rounded up to the nearest half-ton)."

I personally do not track fighter fuel pump tons since the additional 2% weight applies to non-fighter aerospace craft.

Alayne Leung wrote:
Quote:
Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Classic BattleTech TechManual p. 186 Determine Fuel Capacity

The Aerospace Fuel Table indicates that an aerospace fighter has 80 fuel points per ton.

The first Crazy Strafey is listed as having 975 fuel points. Dividing 975 by 80 yields 12.1875 tons of fuel. The TechManual smallest weight unit is 0.5 tons and the book does not mention any calculations for fuel pumps. By the TechManual 12.5 tons of fuel yield 1,000 fuel points.

The second Crazy Strafey is listed as having 234 fuel points. Dividing 234 by 80 yields 2.925 tons of fuel. By the TechManual 3 tons of fuel yield 240 fuel points.

I was using Strategic Operations fuel rules; 78 points of fuel plus 2% of total fuel tonnage of 80 points is approximately one ton of fuel & pumps, so 12.5 tons multiplied by 78 points of fuel = 975 fuel points:


From the quoted reply the fuel and pumps calculations done here also used Strategic Operations to determine the thrust points

Catalyst Game Labs Strategic Operations:
General Rules: Fuel Consumption (Aerospace Units) pp. 34-35
General Rules: Fuel Consumption (All Units) p. 35
Designing Advanced Aerospace Units pp. 144-161 Step 2: install Engines and Control Systems Determine Fuel Capacity p. 147

I have not taken a look at the rules or figured out how to apply them.

However, from what I see for General Rules: Fuel Consumption (Aerospace Units) pp. 34-35 and Fuel Consumption (All Units) p. 35 the rules are applied during game play not during construction. A closer look at Fuel Consumption (All Units) p. 35 appears to apply to only non-aerospace units.

The rules in Designing Advanced Aerospace Units apply to Space Stations, JumpShips, and Warships not to the aerospace units in the TechManual.

Using the rules in the TechManual the first fighter, without calculating fuel pump tons, the 4 tons of fuel supplies 4 x 80 = 320 thrust points.

Applying the 2% fuel pump rule and the rounding to the nearest half-ton the first fighter's fuel capacity is total fuel & pumps 4 - 0.5 = 3.5 x 80 = 280 thrust points.

The second fighter's listing I feel would be: Thrust points without fuel pumps 5.5 x 80 = 440 and with fuel pumps 5 x 80 = 400.

The fuel consumption rules, in my opinion, would only be used during a scenario and does not apply to the construction information. As a suggestion if this information is desired, first calculate the fuel and fuel points for fighters per the rules then add in the notes section the information with fuel pumps and the rules from Strategic Operations.

4. The installed weapons in both of the fighter's readouts still exceed Catalyst Game Labs Classic BattleTech TechManual Designing Aerospace Units
Step 1 Design the Chassis p. 183 requirement.
Space
Unlike Combat and Support vehicles, aerospace units derive their space limits (weapon slots) from their unit type rather than their weight. For conventional and aerospace fighters, this limit is set at 5 weapons per arc (Nose, Left Wing, Right Wing and Aft). Though the use of certain armor types may reduce this number, construction can never increase this quantity.

Step 3 Add Armor p. 191
Space: Carrying ferro-aluminum armor in any form affects the allotment of weapon slots on conventional and aerospace fighter units. The amount of slots taken by a given armor type (and the locations affected) are shown under the Slots column (appropriate to the unit’s Tech Base) in the Aerospace Armor Weapon Space Table (Fighters Only) (see p. 192). An entry of “NA” indicates that units using that technology base may not install the listed armor type.

A conventional fighter or aerospace fighter does not have left or right wing aft arcs per the Catalyst Game Labs Classic BattleTech TechManual Aerospace Unit Record Sheet Table on p. 182.

5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 left wing aft arc
5 Inner Sphere Medium Lasers 5 right wing aft arc

5. Strafing

The quoted section does not, in my opinion, follow the rules for strafing as described in Total Warfare and Strategic operations.

Quote:
Alayne Leung wrote:
Let's also remember that the Advanced Ability Traits (Weapon Specialist & range switching & I think Ground Attack) from A Time of War should probably make strafing attacking to-hit rolls easier I think.


TW pp. 243-245
Base To-Hit Number = Pilot Gunnery Skill
Modified To-Hit Number = Pilot Gunnery Skill + Strafing Attack Modifier 4 + Fighter Damage + Target Movement + the terrain in the strafing zone + other modifiers (prone and partial cover do not apply)

If the modified To-Hit number is > 12 the attack misses and may choose not to attack if the modified To-Hit number is <= 2 the attack automatically hits.

Quote:
Damage from all 30 Medium Lasers simultaneously during a strafing attack for five hexes during a single turn is: 5 damage points *(4 units plus structure)*5 hexes *30 Medium Lasers =3,750 damage points total in one Total Warfare turn. That's still :crazy: Damage from 20 Medium Lasers simultaneously during a strafing attack for five hexes during a single turn is: 5 damage points *(4 units plus structure)*5 hexes *20 Medium Lasers =2,500 damage points total in one Total Warfare turn provided that the wing aft arcs aren't used. That's still :crazy:


Total Warfare p. 243
1. A unit making this type of attack chooses from one to five consecutive hexes along the attack path. These hexes must lie in a straight line.

2. The unit may fire one, some or all of its non-ammo-dependent direct-fire energy and pulse weapons when strafing. The player must roll for every target, hostile or friendly, in all of the chosen hexes. See Modified To-Hit Number, at left, to determine the target number for a strafing attack.

3. The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target. Apply weapon hits using the standard rules for the appropriate unit type. No matter how many targets are attacked, each weapon only fires once for the purposes of heat and ammunition tracking. Use the column of the appropriate Hit Location Table that corresponds to the attack direction, based on the direction from which the fighter entered the target’s hex, rather than the fighter’s position at the end of the Movement Phase.

The rules suggest that the speed of the fighter across one to five 30 meter ground hexes acts like firing weapons once at a target in Aerospace combat.

Using 5 left wing medium lasers + 5 nose medium lasers + 5 right wing lasers the fighter has to determine the Modified To-Hit Number for each firing laser at every target, friendly or hostile, in the path being strafed.
Under normal ground combat and aerospace rules weapons that miss the target are no longer tracked to see if they might hit something else down range and do damage. In Strafing the rules do track that the energy from each laser continues to move down range the designated number of hexes before disappearing. Unfortunately, the wording suggests that the laser that hit a target will continue to go down range.

My solution in the case of 15 lasers a hit reduces the number of lasers that are used on the next target. In hex 1 there are two targets. The first target in the hex I have to roll 15 times to determine if I got a hit. One of the 15 lasers hit the target doing 5 points of damage. The second target has to avoid being hit by 14 lasers. Each hex in the strafing path repeats the cycle until the attack is done.

The firing of fifteen medium lasers generate 3 x 15 = 45 heat points and each does 5 points of damage on a successful To-Hit roll. However, I will reduce the number of weapons attacking the following targets by the number that succeeded in hitting a target.

From Strategic Operations pp. 235-236,
"p. 235: Strafing Attacks: In a strafing run, the craft fires its weapons repeatedly at the ground to saturate two contiguous hexes. A Unit making a strafing attack chooses two target hexes (which must be adjacent and follow the flight path of the aerospace Unit) and makes attacks against every Element (friend or foe) in both hexes. The attacking Unit must be at low altitude.

p. 236: Damage (Strafing Attacks): A successful Strafing attack delivers half of the attacking Element’s short range Damage Value (rounded normally, to a minimum of 1) to every Element in the hex struck by the attack. If overheating modifies a Strafing attack, add the Overheat Value to the short range Damage Value before reducing the damage by half. A Strafing attack that hits an Element from the rear delivers 1 additional point of damage, which is also added to the base Damage Value before halving takes place."

The rules modify the Total Warfare rules but I still not sure how to handle the heat build-up. However, the part about saturating the ground being strafed is, in my opinion, what one sees in the video clips of strafing on the Internet or in war movies/programs showing ground air-to-ground attacks.

Hopefully my understanding of the rules in Total Warfare for strafing is not totally out to lunch and I'll use them until I can figure out the modifications in Strategic Operation.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:06 am 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Roy, WA. USA
Evening PDT,

Another way to explain Total Warfare strafing rules on pp. 243 would be to fire a single shell with pellets from a shotgun. The non-ammunition using direct fire energy weapons in my opinion are the pellets and any the make the To-Hit Number does damage to a single target any that mess continues on until it either hits the target or goes out of the last strafing run hex.

_________________
Tom R (aka snrdg101206)


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm 
Offline
Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 pm
Posts: 99
Hi Tom,
(My first name is Alayne, but if you want to call me "Elayne" then maybe I'll become popular enough to join Elaine on CGTV,

Either I've forgotten the rules of aerospace fighter construction or I've misunderstood them. (I'm getting a new copy of TechManual later on provided that my local bookstore can order me a copy). Thank you for your clarifications. Apparently fractional accounting can be used for aerospace fighters (scroll down or search for "fractional accounting" on this link's following webpage).

http://www.heavymetalpro.com/HMAero_Revisions.htm

I do remember reading a topic years ago on I think HeavyMetal Program Discussion forum that Rick Raisley specifically explained how to have fractional accounting to another member, but search feature can't seem to locate that topic. (I think Rick Raisley basically said you're to select rules Level 3 when using HeavyMetal Aero and then select "Fractional Accounting" selection).

1. Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Fusion 400 XXL tonnage

On the first readout the engine is listed as being 26.5 tons and in the second readout the weight is 17.5 tons in Catalyst Game Labs Tactical Operations Mech Engine Type Modifier Table [Addendum] p. 381 an Inner Sphere XXL Fusion Engine has a Modifier of .25

Std. Fusion 400 Engine is 52.5 tons
XXL Fusion 400 Engine = 52.5 x 0.25 = 13.1 rounding to 13 or 13.5 tons


So you're saying that an Inner Sphere XXL fusion engine has a tonnage that is 1/4 xor 0.25 that of a standard fusion engine of same rating? If so, then that's wonderful.

2.a. I think 30 double heat sinks are better, but that's fine if you only want 25 for a Crazy Strafey. Theoretically, a Crazy Strafey flying at max thrust can travel farther, and while using Strategic Operations rules can evade better; but I understand why safe thrust is more beneficial (to have lower attacker movement modifier, but perhaps Crazy Strafey drone could compensate for its own attacker movement and evasive modifiers?

b. That overthrusting is theoretically like Sprinting MP from Tactical Operations (basically Safe Thrust multiplied by 2 like Walking MP multiplied by 2). Since a LAM can use Sprinting MP (I think), it should be capable of using overthrust when it's in aerospace fighter mode; and if a LAM can use overthrust in aerospace fighter mode, then an aerospace fighter (such as a Crazy Strafey) should be capable of using overthrust.

3. I prefer to include fuel pumps because I don't understand how an aerospace fighter can get its fuel into combustion chambers without the use of pumps.

4. Just so you know, I designed the Crazy Strafeies to each use standard armor.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
Total Warfare Strafing:

1. A unit making this type of attack chooses from one to five consecutive hexes along the attack path. These hexes must lie in a straight line.

2. The unit may fire one, some or all of its non-ammo-dependent direct-fire energy and pulse weapons when strafing. The player must roll for every target, hostile or friendly, in all of the chosen hexes. See Modified To-Hit Number, at left, to determine the target number for a strafing attack.

3. The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target. Apply weapon hits using the standard rules for the appropriate unit type. No matter how many targets are attacked, each weapon only fires once for the purposes of heat and ammunition tracking. Use the column of the appropriate Hit Location Table that corresponds to the attack direction, based on the direction from which the fighter entered the target’s hex, rather than the fighter’s position at the end of the Movement Phase.


Wait a minute, I thought #1 specifically said that the unit may fire one, some or all of its non-ammo dependent direct-fire energy and pulse weapons when strafing. So why say "heat and ammunition tracking" instead of just saying "heat tracking"?

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
The rules suggest that the speed of the fighter across one to five 30 meter ground hexes acts like firing weapons once at a target in Aerospace combat.

Using 5 left wing medium lasers + 5 nose medium lasers + 5 right wing lasers the fighter has to determine the Modified To-Hit Number for each firing laser at every target, friendly or hostile, in the path being strafed.
Under normal ground combat and aerospace rules weapons that miss the target are no longer tracked to see if they might hit something else down range and do damage. In Strafing the rules do track that the energy from each laser continues to move down range the designated number of hexes before disappearing. Unfortunately, the wording suggests that the laser that hit a target will continue to go down range.

My solution in the case of 15 lasers a hit reduces the number of lasers that are used on the next target.


I don't think so. #3 says: The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target. You'll notice that it says "rolls" instead of roll. I think there might be a strafing example in Total Warfare, but I'm not sure.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
In hex 1 there are two targets. The first target in the hex I have to roll 15 times to determine if I got a hit. One of the 15 lasers hit the target doing 5 points of damage. The second target has to avoid being hit by 14 lasers. Each hex in the strafing path repeats the cycle until the attack is done.

The firing of fifteen medium lasers generate 3 x 15 = 45 heat points and each does 5 points of damage on a successful To-Hit roll. However, I will reduce the number of weapons attacking the following targets by the number that succeeded in hitting a target.

From Strategic Operations pp. 235-236,
"p. 235: Strafing Attacks: In a strafing run, the craft fires its weapons repeatedly at the ground to saturate two contiguous hexes. A Unit making a strafing attack chooses two target hexes (which must be adjacent and follow the flight path of the aerospace Unit) and makes attacks against every Element (friend or foe) in both hexes. The attacking Unit must be at low altitude.

p. 236: Damage (Strafing Attacks): A successful Strafing attack delivers half of the attacking Element’s short range Damage Value (rounded normally, to a minimum of 1) to every Element in the hex struck by the attack. If overheating modifies a Strafing attack, add the Overheat Value to the short range Damage Value before reducing the damage by half. A Strafing attack that hits an Element from the rear delivers 1 additional point of damage, which is also added to the base Damage Value before halving takes place."

The rules modify the Total Warfare rules but I still not sure how to handle the heat build-up.


#3 above specifically says: No matter how many targets are attacked, each weapon only fires once for the purposes of heat and ammunition tracking.

Tom said or typed or wrote:
Quote:
However, the part about saturating the ground being strafed is, in my opinion, what one sees in the video clips of strafing on the Internet or in war movies/programs showing ground air-to-ground attacks.

Hopefully my understanding of the rules in Total Warfare for strafing is not totally out to lunch and I'll use them until I can figure out the modifications in Strategic Operation.

Another way to explain Total Warfare strafing rules on pp. 243 would be to fire a single shell with pellets from a shotgun. The non-ammunition using direct fire energy weapons in my opinion are the pellets and any the make the To-Hit Number does damage to a single target any that mess continues on until it either hits the target or goes out of the last strafing run hex.


I don't think that's how strafing "works", but I could be incorrect because #3 above says, "The attacking player makes separate to-hit rolls for each weapon against each target.". I think that either a way more thorough example of strafing must be provided, xor omit strafing rules from Total Warfare altogether and perhaps republish them in Tactical Operations.

Here are the revised Crazy Strafeies (they're each now equipped with 5 Inner Sphere medium pulse lasers per firing arc; Clan medium pulse lasers have double range, though):

Crazy Strafey Expendable Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
3 standard cockpit
0 SI of 10
26.5 fusion 400 XXL engine
20 double heat sinks: 30 ; heat: 62 of 30 medium pulse lasers plus 2 heat Max Thrust
6 fuel: 480
6 twenty-four points of standard armor per each location
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers nose arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers left arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers right arc
8 targeting computer
100 total tonnage

Crazy Strafey Expendable Drone Aerospace Fighter (should be using TechManual & Tactical Operations & Strategic Operations rules)
100 desired tonnage
2 small cockpit
0 SI: 10
10.5 drone equipment & drone sensors
17.5 fusion XXL engine
23 double heat sinks: 33; heat: 69 of 30 medium pulse lasers and Overthrust MP (like Sprinting MP)
6.12 fuel & pumps: 480
0.25 one point of standard armor per location
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers nose arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers left arc
10 five Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Lasers right arc
8 targeting computer
2.63 extra fuel or armor per player's choice(s)
100.00 total tonnage

_________________
Any rules ideas that I post for BT aren't official unless an up to date BT rulesbook declares otherwise. You might have to wait at least a fortnight for me to reply because I'm usually very active. I won't discuss real life politics or religion on any of these forum(s), but my favorite color is yellow like my skin color (hint).


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC-04:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
American English Language Pack © Maël Soucaze