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This isn't a thread to solicit new equipment or rules additions to the programs; that will come with the Pro6 series. But there have been many changes to the BV, etc. of various equipment <i>already included</i> in HMPro and HMVee, and some of these may have been missed or not yet included, as a result of the new books (TechManual and Tactical Operations, and soon to be out Strategic Operations). The purpose of this thread is for identifying these shortcomings and providing that information. NOT for discussing them. Except if a report is in error, and the errata needs errata'd. As an old Dragnet show would say "Just the facts, M'am".

Doing this will make it much easier for me to pick up all the changes. I may even add an Edit to each one, once it's changed.

I'll start off with a report by DarkISI:
Okay, turns out that IMHO, these are new versions of the previous weapons, rather than changes. So I am not going to change them in the BV2 database. Why? Mostly, so that people can continue to use designs with the previous weapon. The Heavy Flamer, for example, is heavier, with shorter range, and different BV, and now available to the Clans and the IS. That's new weapon, IMHO, so I will adding it to Pro6, but not to HMP BV2. Likewise, the Silver Bullet Gauss was a weapon from the old MechWarrior Unbound. Again, a specific weapon of the time. The new, production version is therefore a new weapon, rather than a changed on.

What's the difference between a correction and a change? Good question. Certainly, changing only the BV of a weapon is a change. So I would make that change immediately. If the mass, crits or range change, I would tend to keep the old "classic" version, and add the new one later, so it doesn't invalidate existing designs (standard or custom). If the weapon came from an obsolete source (older than the previously legal rules), such as MechWarrior Unbound, I would tend to keep the old version as well.

Do me a favor: If anyone disagrees with process of determining which ones are new, which are corrections, please start up a new thread for this, so we just have the "facts", okay?

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

Perhaps this is old news to you, but were you aware of the BV changes made in the new TechManual errata?

http://www.classicbattletech.com/index. ... TechManual

I thought I was up to date with those, but went back through and checked. I think I've got them all. In fact, most of the changes have been in HMPro BV2 since before the errata was posted. Thanks, though.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

Inner Sphere Weapons

Small X-Pulse Laser, BV 20-21 *RAR: Changed, although I think 20 is closer. Maybe there's a change I don't know about.
Thunderbolt 15, ammo BV 26-29 *RAR: Corrected.
Thunderbolt 20, ammo BV 35-38 *RAR: Corrected.

Thunderbolt (THB) 15, ammo BV 26-29t *RAR: I already had this value.
Thunderbolt (THB) 20, ammo BV 35-38 *RAR: I already had this value.
Mech Mortar/1 (THB), BV 29/4-10/1 cost 30,000/30,000-7,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/2 (THB), BV 57/7-14/2 cost 100,000/30,000-15,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/4 (THB), BV 86/11-26/3 cost 175,000/30,000-32,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/8 (THB), BV 114/14-50/6 cost 250,000/30,000-70,000/10/000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.

<snip ELRMs>

*RAR: ELRM values removed, as they have been corrected in another post below.

MRM 40 (OS), BV 45-49 *RAR: Changed, even though I think the original value is closer.
MRM 40 (I-OS), BV 45-49 *RAR: Changed, even though I think the original value is closer.
Grenade Launcher, BV 1-15 *RAR: Corrected.

Clan Weapons

Heavy Machine Gun, change range 1/2/3-1/2/- *RAR: Was already correct.
Ultra AC/10, BV 211-210 *RAR: Corrected.
Grenade Launcher, BV 1-15 *RAR: Corrected.

Mixed Tech I.S. Base

Small X-Pulse Laser, BV 20-21 *RAR: Corrected.
ER Large Laser (C), BV 249-248 *RAR: Corrected.
Heavy Large Laser (C), BV 243-244 *RAR: Corrected.
Anti-Missile System (C), BV 63/21-32/22 *RAR: Corrected.
Gauss Rifle (C), BV 321/33-320/40 *RAR: Corrected.
LB 20-X AC (C), ammo BV 33-30 *RAR: Corrected.
Ultra AC/5 (C), BV 123-122 *RAR: Corrected.
Ultra AC/10 (C), BV 211-210 *RAR: Corrected.
Ultra AC/20 (C), BV 337/35-335/42 *RAR: Corrected.
Heavy Machine Gun (C), change range 1/2/3-1/2/- *RAR: Already correct.
Thunderbolt 15, ammo BV 26-29 *RAR: Corrected.
Thunderbolt 20, ammo BV 35-38 *RAR: Corrected.

Thunderbolt (THB) 15, ammo BV 26-29 *RAR: Not a TO weapon. Values checked, but will remain separate.
Thunderbolt (THB) 20, ammo BV 35-38 *RAR: Not a TO weapon. Values checked, but will remain separate.
Mech Mortar/1 (THB), BV 29/4-10/1 cost 30,000/30,000-7,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/2 (THB), BV 57/7-14/2 cost 100,000/30,000-15,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/4 (THB), BV 86/11-26/3 cost 175,000/30,000-32,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/8 (THB), BV 114/14-50/6 cost 250,000/30,000-70,000/10/000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.

<snip ELRMs by RAR>

* RAR: Again, I'm not sure THB values should be changed.

MRM 40 (OS), BV 45-49 *RAR: Corrected.
MRM 40 (I-OS), BV 45-49 *RAR: Corrected.
Grenade Launcher, BV 1-15 *RAR: Corrected.
Grenade Launcher (C), BV 1-15 *RAR: Corrected.
Streak SRM 6 (C), BV 119-118 *RAR: Corrected.

Mixed Tech Clan Base

Large Laser (IS), BV 124-123 *RAR: Corrected.
Small X-Pulse Laser (IS), BV 20-21 *RAR: Corrected.
Autocannon/10 (IS), BV 124-123 *RAR: Corrected.

Caseless AC/5 (THB)(IS), BV 3/0-70/9

*RAR: A THB weapon.

Heavy Machine Gun, change range 1/2/3-1/2/- *RAR: Again, already correct, I believe.

HV AC/2 (THB)(IS), BV 48/6-53/7 *RAR: Corrected.

*RAR: A THB weapon.

LB 20-X AC (IS), ammo BV 27-30 *RAR: Corrected.
Ultra AC/5 (IS), BV 113-112 *RAR: Corrected.
Ultra AC/10, BV 211-210 *RAR: Corrected.
Ultra AC/10 (IS), BV 253/29-210/26 *RAR: Corrected.
Ultra AC/20 (IS), BV 282/32-281/35 *RAR: Corrected.

Mech Mortar/1 (THB) (IS), BV 29/4-10/1 cost 30,000/30,000-7,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/2 (THB) (IS), BV 57/7-14/2 cost 100,000/30,000-15,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/4 (THB) (IS), BV 86/11-26/3 cost 175,000/30,000-32,000/10,000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.
Mech Mortar/8 (THB) (IS), BV 114/14-50/6 cost 250,000/30,000-70,000/10/000 *RAR: Changed from THB to standard TO weapons, and values updated.

<snip ELRMs due to correction below. RAR >

LRM 10 (IS), ammo BV 18-11 *RAR: Corrected.
SR DFM-6 (THB)(IS), BV 50/6-59/7 *RAR: I disagree with this value, and think it should remain at 59/6. Why do you think otherwise?

Thunderbolt 15 (IS), ammo BV 26-29 *RAR: Corrected.
Thunderbolt 20 (IS), ammo BV 35-38 *RAR: Corrected.

Thunderbolt-15 (THB)(IS), ammo BV 26-29 *RAR: Corrected.
Thunderbolt-20 (THB)(IS), ammo BV 35-38 *RAR: Corrected.

*RAR: Ditto about THB weapons.

MRM 40 (OS) (IS), BV 45-49 *RAR: Corrected.
MRM 40 (I-OS) (IS), BV 45-49 *RAR: Corrected.
Grenade Launcher, BV 1-15 *RAR: Corrected.
Grenade Launcher (IS), BV 1-15 *RAR: Corrected.

Null-Signature System BV should be calculated in the same way as Stealth Armor. *RAR: Corrected.

Because of changes with BV2 the "For reference, BV1" will be wrong if an active probe is mounted. *RAR: Yeah, can't help that now, I think.

Thanks very much for that compilation. I've made a lot of the changes, except for the THB values. My feeling on THB weapons are:

If their stats (damage, heat, range, mass, crits) changed, then the THB designs should be kept, as they represent the older/obsolete versions of these weapons.

If only the cost changed, and if the cost went /down/, we should /possibly/ keep the old, experimental (more costly) versions.

If the BV changed, there's a good chance the BV was not calculated properly before, and I'll have another look at those. ELRMs are a good example; my old program only considered range to 30 hexes.

Also, many of the mixed tech changes were because I hadn't gone and changed them yet, but thanks for pointing them out.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

Inner Sphere Weapons

I put the wrong ammo BV for ELRM's last time, I used the OS numbers, and I am not sure why I included the Thunderbolt (THB)
ELRM-5 (THB), BV 64/8-67/8 cost 110,000/90,000-60,000/35,000 *RAR: The THB weapon is different than the TO one, so BV, and cost, will remain different.
ELRM-10 (THB), BV 127/16-133/17 cost 225,000/90,000-200,000/35,000 *RAR: The THB weapon is different than the TO one, so BV, and cost, will remain different.
ELRM-15 (THB), BV 191/24-200/25 cost 350,000/90,000-350,000/35,000 *RAR: The THB weapon is different than the TO one, so BV, and cost, will remain different.
ELRM-20 (THB), BV 254/34-268/34 cost 450,000/90,000-500,000-35,000 *RAR: The THB weapon is different than the TO one, so BV, and cost, will remain different.

Clan Weapons

Heavy Machine Gun, change range 1/2/3-1/2/-
I see now that the HMG has the correct range but it is diplayed incorrectly in the weapon information boxes.

Mixed Tech I.S. Base

Grenade Launcher (C), BV 1-15 *RAR: Corrected.

Mixed Tech Clan Base

The BV for these (THB) weapons need changing, not entered correctly.
Caseless AC/5 (THB)(IS), BV 3/0-70/9 *RAR: Corrected.
HV AC/2 (THB)(IS), BV 48/6-53/7 *RAR: Corrected.
SR DFM-6 (THB)(IS), BV 50/6-59/7 *RAR: I think 50 is correct, so changed the ones that were 59.

LRM 10 (IS), ammo BV 18-11 *RAR: Corrected.

Coolant Pods BV2 heat calculations have changed.

The "before" numbers now agree with HMP, however, my BV calcs don't come up to the new number. As they usually do, is there something I'm missing? I get 71/9, 142/18, 214/27 and 286/36, rather than the numbers given. Perhaps I'm missing something?

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

I can not find a way to do it with the BV calculator but inside min range less missiles hit. Will that make it closer to the BV in TacOps
Edit; I did a 3 rack and 5 rack and used the numbers which gave me the same BV as the TacOps ELRM 5.

So, if the ELRMs from THB are different, then that pretty much makes all the above THB weapons unique, and not covered by TW/TO. Is that correct?

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

Yes, though many have the same weights, crits, ranges and damage there are some differences with a few within a type of weapon such as the Hyper-Velocity AC/2 or how damage is resolved such as the ELRM's, as you said it does not make sense to just change a few.

I still think the Mech Mortars need their BV changing to the TacOps numbers, the current numbers do not take into account the +3 to-hit mod.

You're absolutely right. Did we determine if the TO and THB 'Mech Mortars are identical? If so, I can also remove the "THB" designation.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

They have the same weight, crits, ranges, and damage depends on which ammo type you are using. The TacOps Anti-Personel shell is now more effective. The Smoke round has a few rules changes. Flare and Shaped-Charge rounds are the same. TacOps also introduces a couple of new types.

I would say they are the same weapon and would allow them to fire any of the types of ammo available, but if this is the only weapon system to have its (THB) designation removed it is like breaking up a full set so they should probably keep the (THB) designation

Well, seem silly also not to include a "new" weapon, if it's available as it's the same. So I removed THB and included the new costs and BVs.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

I've placed zips of the HMPro and HMVee BV2 standard weapons which include all changes to date. While I'll be releasing them in an update, these are for Leon and others to use to confirm that changes have been made correctly, and find any other problems. You can download them at:

http://www.heavymetalpro.com/files/HMProWeaps.zip

http://www.heavymetalpro.com/files/HMVeeWeaps.zip

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

http://www.heavymetalpro.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=17693

I tend to take the values HMPro gives me as correct until I find something that makes me go In this case the "Mixed Tech Clan Base" had a different BV than the other "Tech Bases" so I thought this one was entered incorrectly. I can not find a 3D6 entry on the new BV calculator http://www.heavymetalpro.com/bv_calc.htm but using the custom weapons editor I get these BV's for DFM's

LR DFM-5 73/9, same as HMPro
LR DFM-10 144/18, same as HMPro
LR DFM-15 219/27, HMPro has 218/27 * RAR: 218/27 is correct. Formulas have been fine-tuned to be correct.
LR DFM-20 293/37, HMPro has 291/36 * RAR: 292/36 is correct. Formulas have been fine-tuned to be correct.

SR DFM-2 18/2, same as HMPro
SR DFM-4 34/4, same as HMPro
SR DFM-6 51/6, should be 50/6 * RAR: 50/6 is correct. Formulas have been fine-tuned to be correct.

* RAR: The formulas for 3d6 in the programs, and in my weapon generator program, were slightly different. I've updated both to be absolutely correct (to 6 decimals), based on the new missile hits table. The programs will be updated accordingly.

There may be errors with PPC's and Capacitors depending on heat efficiency, TacOps gives BV's for the combined PPC+Capacitor, HMPro handles them as separate weapons.

  CALCULATE OFFENSIVE BATTLE RATING:                                          
  ----------------------------------                                          
  'Mech Heat Efficiency = 6 + Heat Sink Capy - Movement Heat                  
                           = 6 + 20 - 2 = 24                                  
  Total Corrected Offensive weapon heat = 30                                  
  30 Offensive weapon heat > 24 'Mech heat efficiency,                        
     so halve BV of weapons fully exceeding the 'Mech Heat Efficiency:        
                                                                              
  Offensive Weapons:                 Heat:  Running Heat Total:               
   Weapons at Full BV due to heat efficiency:                                 
    1 PPC                              10   10                           176  
    1 PPC                              10   20                           176  
    1 PPC Capacitor                     5   25                            88  
   Weapons at Half BV due to heat efficiency:                                 
    1 PPC Capacitor                     5   30                 1/2 x 88 = 44  
                                                                      --------
  Base Weapon Battle Rating            30 Offensive Weapon Heat            484
  Add Total 'Mech Tonnage                                                + 100
                                                                      --------
  Adjusted Offensive Battle Rating                                         584

By the rules I think it should be as follows

  CALCULATE OFFENSIVE BATTLE RATING:                                          
  ----------------------------------                                          
  'Mech Heat Efficiency = 6 + Heat Sink Capy - Movement Heat                  
                           = 6 + 20 - 2 = 24                                  
  Total Corrected Offensive weapon heat = 30                                  
  30 Offensive weapon heat > 24 'Mech heat efficiency,                        
     so halve BV of weapons fully exceeding the 'Mech Heat Efficiency:        
                                                                              
  Offensive Weapons:                 Heat:  Running Heat Total:               
   Weapons at Full BV due to heat efficiency:                                 
    1 PPC+Capacitor                    15   15                           264  
    1 PPC+Capacitor                    15   30                           264  
                                                                      --------
  Base Weapon Battle Rating            30 Offensive Weapon Heat            528
  Add Total 'Mech Tonnage                                                + 100
                                                                      --------
  Adjusted Offensive Battle Rating                                         628

Probably not something easily fixable in HMPro. It seems a bit wrong to me as a PPC+Capacitor will only generate full heat every other turn

All Improved-One Shot Missile launchers need their cost adjusting. Component cost x 0.8. *RAR: Corrected.

I will not be able to fix this problem, without replacing the two "weapons" with one. Which is what I intend to do in HMPro6, but not HMPro. Like other new weapons, the best way would be to add a new custom weapon. (I still don't know why I didn't decide to just make a separate PPC with Capacitor, rather than separate capacitors.)

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

A single weapon may create problems with targeting computers as the capacitor does not count towards targeting computer size, and I think the capacitor needs its own crit slot, if a capacitor suffers a critical hit while discharged the PPC can still fire normally

Oh brother, they sure do make it difficult. Either you keep track of each and every separate Capacitor, and make sure it's paired with the proper PPC, or you complicate all weapon data, having one BV for "normal", another for use with TCPUs.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

In what manual is that in?

_________________
Sir Henry

A Dragon in the disguise of a rabbit, is still a Dragon...

[img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img]

PPC Capacitor & ER PPC Capacitor is in Tactical Operations Manual.

iNARC amunition should have 0BV. Has 15BV

Why not just make a single capacitor that can link up with ANY weapon with the letters PPC in its name?

*shrugs*

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Currently, so they can be matched up with the approriate PPC. I'm thinking in the future they should be part of the weapon, though.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

The problem is, the way it is now, I have to make a custom PPC capacitor and waste another space in my custom weapon file so I can put a cap on a heavy PPC. It would be nicer to just have a single capacitor that can link up with anything named PPC.

_________________
Medron Pryde - The Great and Terrible
[img]http://faileas.greywolf.googlepages.com/WOTD.png[/img]
[url=http://www.pryderockindustries.com]P.R.I.[/url] - The home of BattleTech programs and files
"I'm gonna Tea Party like its 1776." - Medron Pryde
Who is John Galt?

Anyone remember what them-thar capacitors do to targeting comps?

_________________
[url=http://www.hitbox.tv/hmpgoose]Goose - The Egyptian God of Frustration[/url]

"He closes his eyes and remembers the night splattered with brightness, the sudden flare of erupting fuel, the mad chase as, supersonic, he bobbed and weaved among the hills and valleys of the Ozarks, the laws on his tail, burning for home …"

Hit me, if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling you didn't notice that, due to the capacitator discussion. Just want to be sure, because it's rather important (being a tournament legal weapon and all )

I noticed it, and made a note of it, just haven't done anything about it yet.

Just now, I confirmed the 0 in the TechManual, but it makes little sense to me, with explosive pods and all, so I'm questioning it with TPTB, just in case.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

Any news from TPTB?

Yeah, they said to leave the BV at zero. I need to change it.

_________________
Rick
~~~~~
[email]rick@heavymetalpro.com[/email] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/flag-us.gif[/img] [img]http://www.heavymetalpro.com/countries/ ... rolina.gif[/img]

* There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. *

I think Coolant Pods are not limited to torso locations using the new rules.

HMPro Bloodhound Probe BV needs changing to defensive.

The modifier for Composite Structure is now 1.