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 Post subject: M1A3 Abrams MBT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:24 pm 
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Private First Class
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Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:21 pm
Posts: 14
Writing a CBT:RPG Campaign that takes place in 2018. :D As such, I've done up some old standards of the U.S. Military on HMV. This is the first. Hope you like, and feel free to offer up pointers!
Code:
 BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
                      VALIDATED


Type/Model:    Abrams MBT M1A3
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 2012
Config:        Tracked Vehicle
Rules:         Level 3, Standard design

Mass:          69.5 tons
Power Plant:   280 General Motors I.C.E.
Cruise Speed:  43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type:    Chobham Mk I.B Hvy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:      
  1 Rheinmetall Waffe Munition M256 Autocannon/10 
  2 Hekler & Koch M240 7.62mm Machine Gun Machine Guns
Manufacturer:  A.M. General
  Location:   Terre Haute, Indiana, United States, North America, Terra
Communications System:  Bose / Cobam A/N PRC 17
Targeting & Tracking System:  Digital Systems Engineering Abrams Stedi-Trak

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Abrams MBT M1A3
Mass:          69.5 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  35 pts Standard               0      7.00
Engine:        280 I.C.E.                    0     32.00
    Cruise MP:   4
     Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:      0 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      3.50
Crew: 4 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment:                            0      1.50
Armor Factor:   89 pts Hvy Ferro-Fibrous     3      4.50

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     7         26 
   Left / Right Sides:        7      18/18 
   Rear:                      7         12 
   Turret:                    7         15 

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Autocannon/10          Turret   0   40     2     16.00
1 Machine Gun            Turret   0  100     2      1.00
1 Machine Gun            Front    0  100     1      1.00
1 Targeting Computer                     1      3.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                           0          9     69.50
Items & Tons Left:                           9       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        1,379,447 C-Bills
Battle Value:      348
Cost per BV:       3,963.93
Weapon Value:      192 / 192 (Ratio = .55 / .55)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 10;  MRDmg = 7;  LRDmg = 1
BattleForce2:      MP: 4T,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 4
                   Damage PB/M/L: 2/1/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: GH;  Point Value: 3


Last edited by Gundancer74 on Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:39 am 
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Commanding General
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:22 am
Posts: 2198
Heavy F-F is over the top. So is any other armor with BAR 10. AC/10, and even AC/2 with Extreme Ranges rule don't have even nearly the same range as with Abram's 120 mm M256. BattleTech rules aren't really compatible with real life military hardware. Tech levels and BAR values can be used to get nearly desirable results, but weapons and weapon ranges fail utterly.

One solution: use custom weapons. For M1A1, Wikipedia says this:
Quote:
The M1A1 was capable of making kills at ranges in excess of 2500 m.
That is 84 hexes! Let's call it long range. Weapon weight is 4507 kilograms, or with little bit of rounding, 4,5 tons. That should get you started.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_L44

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:01 am 
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Private First Class
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Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:21 pm
Posts: 14
Matti, I'm glad you posted. I was wondering if people would get miffed for me using custom weapons in a near-future campaign, and looks like the answer is "no."

As for the heavy Ferro-Fibrous, though, I thought that it was the most realistic compromise for a heavy composite like Chobham.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:12 am 
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Private First Class
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Posts: 14
Here it is with the L/55:

BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
* CUSTOM WEAPON

Type/Model: Abrams MBT M1A3
Tech: Inner Sphere / 2012
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design

Mass: 69.5 tons
Power Plant: 280 General Motors I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type: Chobham Mk I.B Standard
Armament:
1 Rheinmetall L/55*
2 Hekler & Koch M240 7.62mm Machine Gun Machine Guns
Manufacturer: A.M. General
Location: Terra
Communications System: Bose / Cobam A/N PRC 17
Targeting & Tracking System: Digital Systems Engineering Abrams Stedi-Trak

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Abrams MBT M1A3
Mass: 69.5 tons

Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 35 pts Standard 0 7.00
Engine: 280 I.C.E. 0 32.00
Cruise MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 0 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 3.50
Crew: 4 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 .50
Armor Factor: 224 pts Standard 0 14.00

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 7 67
Left / Right Sides: 7 45/45
Rear: 7 30
Turret: 7 37

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Rheinmetall L/55* Turret 0 60 2 8.50
1 Machine Gun Front 0 100 2 1.00
1 Machine Gun Turret 0 100 1 1.00
1 Targeting Computer 1 2.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 6 69.50
Items & Tons Left: 12 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 3,565,489 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,175 (old BV = 688)
Cost per BV: 3,034.46
Weapon Value: 22 / 22 (Ratio = .02 / .02)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 1; MRDmg = 0; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 4T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 9
Damage PB/M/L: -/-/-, Overheat: 0
Class: GH; Point Value: 12


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:18 pm 
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Major General
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Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 759
Location: Hope Mills, NC
where is grenade/smoke launcher?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Thought about that after I posted it. :P

It's been added, though.

Updated weapons systems:

Weapons & Equipment: Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
1 Rheinmetall L/55* Turret 0 60 2 8.50
1 M240 LMG 7.62mm* Front 0 300 2 .70
1 M2 Heavy MG .50* Turret 0 250 2 .75
2 M6 Smoke Grenades* Turret 0 2 .40
1 Targeting Computer 0 1 2.00
TOTALS: 0 9 69.35
Items & Tons Left: 9 .15


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Private First Class
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Okay... Here she is, in all her glory. Now, complete with Fluff!
Code:
BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout

Type/Model: 	Abrams MBT M1A3
Tech: 	Inner Sphere / 2012
Config: 	Tracked Vehicle
Rules: 	Level 3, Standard design
  	 
Mass: 	69.5 tons
Power Plant: 	280 Honeywell AGT1500C I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 	43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 	64.8 km/h
Armor Type: 	Chobham Mk I.B Standard
Armament:
    1 Rhinemetall-DeTec AG L/55 (M256) 120mm Cannon*
    2 Browning M240 Light MG 7.62mms*
    2 M6 Intellitec Multisalvo S/G Launcher Smoke Grenades*
    1 Browning M2 Heavy MG .50*
Manufacturer:    A.M. General
   Location:    Lima, Ohio, North America, Terra
Communications System:    Bose / Cobam A/N PRC 17
Targeting & Tracking System: General Dynamics Enhanced C4I w/Full Network and CITV

[b]
Overview:[/b]

The M1 Abrams is a main battle tank produced in the United States. The M1 is named after General Creighton Abrams, former Army Chief of Staff and Commander of US military forces in Vietnam from 1968 to 1972. It is a well armed, heavily armored, and highly mobile tank designed for modern armored ground warfare.   Notable features of the M1 Abrams include the use of a powerful gas turbine engine, the adoption of sophisticated composite armor, and separate ammunition storage in a blow-out compartment for crew safety. It is one of the heaviest tanks in service, weighing in at close to 70 tons.

The M1 Abrams entered U.S. service in 1980, replacing the 105 mm gun, full tracked M60 combat tank. It did, however, serve for over a decade alongside the improved M60A3, which had entered service in 1978. Four main versions of the M1 Abrams have been deployed, the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A3, incorporating improved armament, protection and electronics. These improvements, as well as periodic upgrades to older tanks have allowed this long-serving vehicle to remain in front-line service. It is the principal combat tank of the United States Army and Marine Corps, and the armies of Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and as of 2007, Australia.
Capabilities:

The Abrams is protected by British designed Chobham armor, a further development of the British "Burlington" armor. Chobham is a composite armor formed by spacing multiple layers of various alloys of steel, ceramics, plastic composites, and kevlar, giving an estimated maximum (frontal turret) 1320-1620 millimeters of RHAe versus HEAT (and other chemical energy rounds) and 940–960 mm versus kinetic energy penetrators. It may also be fitted with reactive armor over the track skirts if needed (as in the Urban Survival Kit) and Slat armor over the rear of the tank and rear fuel cells to protect against ATGMs. Fuel and ammunition are in armored compartments with blowout panels to protect the crew from the risk of the tank's own ammunition cooking off if the tank is damaged. Protection against spalling is provided by a kevlar liner. Beginning in 1987, M1A1 tanks received improved armor packages that incorporated depleted uranium (DU) mesh in their armor at the front of the turret and the front of the hull. Armor reinforced in this manner offers significantly increased resistance towards all types of anti-tank weaponry, but at the expense of adding considerable weight to the tank, as depleted uranium is 1.7 times heavier than lead.
The main armament of the M1A1 and M1A2 is the M256A1 120 mm smoothbore gun, designed by Rheinmetall AG of Germany, manufactured under license in the United States by Watervliet Arsenal, New York. The M256A1 is a variant of the Rheinmetall 120 mm L/44 gun carried on the German Leopard 2 on all variants up to the Leopard 2A5. Leopard 2A6 replaced the L/44 barrel with a longer L/55.
The M256A1 fires a variety of rounds. The M829A2 was developed specifically to address the threats posed by a Soviet T-90 or T-80U tank equipped with kontakt-5 Explosive Reactive Armor. It also fires HEAT shaped charge rounds such as the M830, the latest version of which (M830A1) incorporates a sophisticated multi-mode electronic sensing fuse and more fragmentation which allows it to be used effectively against armored vehicles, personnel, and low-flying aircraft. The Abrams uses a manual loader, due to the belief that having a crewman reload the gun is faster and more reliable. Also important in the decision to use a crewman instead of an automatic loader during the XM-1 development was the fact that autoloaders do not allow for separate ammunition storage in the turret.
The new M1028 120 mm anti-personnel canister cartridge was brought into service early for use in the aftermath of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It contains 1,098 3/8 inch tungsten balls which spread from the muzzle to produce a shotgun effect lethal out to 600 m. The tungsten balls can be used to clear enemy dismounts, break up hasty ambush sites in urban areas, clear defiles, stop infantry attacks and counter-attacks and support friendly infantry assaults by providing covering fire. The canister round is also a highly effective breaching round and can level cinder block walls and knock man-sized holes in reinforced concrete walls for infantry raids at distances up to 75 meters.
In addition to this, the new XM1111 (Mid-Range-Munition Kinetic Energy) is also in development. Essentially a cannon-fired guided round, it has a range of roughly 12 km and uses a KE warhead which is rocket assisted in its final phase of flight. This is intended to be the best penetrator yet, an improvement over the US 3rd generation DU penetrator (estimated penetration 790 mm).
The Abrams is equipped with a ballistic fire-control computer that uses data from a variety of sources, including the thermal or daylight Gunner's Primary Sight (GPS), all computing and displaying one of three components of the ballistic solution - lead angle, ammunition type, and range to the target. These three components are determined using a laser rangefinder, crosswind sensor, a pendulum static cant sensor, data on the ammunition type, tank-specific boresight alignment data, ammunition temperature, air temperature, barometric pressure, a muzzle reference sensor (MRS) that determines and compensates for barrel droop at the muzzle due to gravitational pull and barrel heating due to firing or sunlight, and target speed determined by tracking rate tachometers in the Gunner's or Commander's Controls Handles allowing for target speed input into the ballistic solution.
The fire-control system uses these data to compute a firing solution for the gunner. The ballistic solution generated ensures a hit percentage greater than 95 percent at nominal ranges. Either the commander or gunner can fire the main gun. Additionally, the Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer (CITV) on the M1A2 can be used to locate targets and pass them on for the gunner to engage while the commander scans for new targets. In the event of a malfunction or damage to the primary sight system, the main and coaxial weapons can be manually aimed using a telescopic scope boresighted to the main gun known as the Gunner's Auxiliary Sight (GAS). The GAS has two interchangeable reticles; one for HEAT and MPAT (MultiPurpose AntiTank) rounds and one for APFSDS and STAFF (Smart Target-Activated Fire and Forget) ammunition. Turret traverse and main gun elevation can be accomplished with manual handles and cranks in the event of a Fire Control System or Hydraulic System failure. The commander's M2 .50 caliber machine gun on the M1 and M1A1 is aimed by a 3x magnification sight incorporated into the Commander's Weapon Station (CWS), while the M1A2 uses either the machine gun's own iron sights, or a remote aiming system such as the CROWS system when used as part of the TUSK (Tank Urban Survival Kit). The loader's M240 machine gun is aimed either with the built-in iron sights or with a thermal scope mounted on the machine gun.
The Abrams can be carried by a C-5 Galaxy or a C-17 Globemaster III. The limited capacity (two combat-ready in a C-5, one combat-ready tank in a C-17) caused serious logistical problems when deploying the tanks for the First Gulf War, though there was enough time for 1,848 tanks to be transported by ship.
[b]Variants:[/b]

       * XM1 Experimental model. Nine test-beds were produced in 1978.
       * M1 First production variant. Production began in 1979 and continued to 1985 (3,273 built for US).
                   o M1IP (Improvement Production). Produced briefly in 1984 before the M1A1, contained upgrades and reconfigurations.
       * M1A1 Production started in 1986 and continued to 1992 (4,976 built for US, 221 for USMC, 755 for Egypt, 59 M1A1 AIM SA sold to Australia).
                   o M1A1HC (Heavy Common) added new depleted uranium armor mesh, pressurized NBC system, rear bustle rack for improved stowage of supplies and crew belongings, and M256 120 mm smoothbore cannon.
                   o M1A1-D (Digital) A digital upgrade for the M1A1HC, to keep up with M1A2 SEP.
                               + M1A1-AIM (Abrams Integrated Management) A program whereby older units are reconditioned to zero hour conditions;   and the tank is improved by adding Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) and Far Target Locate sensors, a tank-infantry phone, communications gear, including FBCB2 and Blue Force Tracking, to aid in crew situational awareness, and a thermal sight for the .50 caliber machine gun. General Dynamics has been awarded contracts by the US Army to supply this variant. Additionally, 59 M1A1 AIM SA have been sold to Australia.
                   o M1A1 KVT (Krasnovian Variant Tank) M1A1's that have been visually modified to resemble Soviet-made tanks for use at the National Training Center, fitted with MILES gear and a Hoffman device.
                   o M1A1M A variant ordered by the Iraqi Army.
       * M1A2 (Baseline) Production began in 1992 (77 built for US and more than 600 M1s upgraded to M1A2, 315 for Saudi Arabia, 218 for Kuwait). The M1A2 offers the tank commander an independent thermal sight and ability to, in rapid sequence, shoot at two targets without the need to acquire each one sequentially.
       * M1A2 SEP (System Enhancement Package) Also with upgraded 3rd generation depleted uranium encased armor with graphite coating (240 new built, 300 M1A2s upgraded to M1A2SEP for the USA, 250 for Egypt in 2 Egyptian co-production batches of 125 each).
       * M1 Grizzly Engineer Vehicle
       * M1 Panther II Remote Controlled Mine Clearing Vehicle
       * M104 Wolverine Heavy Assault Bridge
       * M1 Panther II Mine Clearing Blade/Roller System.
       * M1 Assault Breacher Vehicle.
       * M1 Armored Recovery Vehicle. Only a prototype produced.
[b]Deployment:[/b]

The new M1A3 is being deployed to forces on active duty in the Middle East.   Currently, on the 2nd and 3rd Airmobile Cavalry Regiments, 7th Cavalry Regiment (1st Cavalry Division), and 2nd Armored Division field the A3.
Type/Model: 	Abrams MBT M1A3
Mass: 	69.5 tons
Const. Options: 	Fractional Accounting
Equipment: 	  	Items 	Mass
Internal Structure: 	35 pts Standard 	0 	6.95
Engine: 	280 I.C.E. 	0 	32.00
   Cruise MP: 	4 	  	 
   Flank MP: 	6 	  	 
Heat Sinks: 	0  	        0 	 .00
Cockpit & Controls:   	0 	3.48
Crew: 	4 Members 	0 	.00
Turret Equipment: 	  	0 	.49
Armor Factor: 	187 pts  	0 	11.69
  	  	     Internal 	Armor
  	  	    Structure 	Value
  	Front: 	 7 	           57
  	L/R Sides: 7 	        37/37
  	Rear: 	 7 	           25
  	Turret: 	 7 	           31
Weapons & Equipment: 	Loc 	    Heat 	Ammo 	Items 	Mass
1 120mm Cannon* 	        Turret 	0 	  60 	           2 	         8.50
1 Light MG 7.62mm* 	Front 	0 	 300 	   2 	           .70
1 Light MG 7.62mm* 	Turret 	0 	1,200 	   1 	         2.20
2 Smoke Grenades* 	Turret 	0 	  	           2 	           .20
1 Heavy MG .50* 	        Front 	0 	  500 	   2 	         1.25
1 Targeting Computer 	  	        0 	  	           1 	         2.00
Items & Tons Left: 	  	  	  	                           8 	           .04

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 	3,877,623 C-Bills
Battle Value: 	1,094
Cost per BV: 	3,544.45
Weapon Value: 	811 / 811 (Ratio = .74 / .74)
Damage Factors:    	SRDmg = 16; MRDmg = 12; LRDmg = 12
BattleForce2: 	MP: 4T,   Armor/Structure: 0 / 7
    	Damage PB/M/L: 1/1/1,   Overheat: 0
    	Class: GH,   Point Value: 11


Last edited by Gundancer74 on Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:39 pm 
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Supreme Mugwump
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 3183
there is another feature missing in the file, although it is being mentioned in the fluff: CASE

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:21 am 
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Loki
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 11444
Location: Minnesnowta
IIRC, BattleTechnology or one of the old canon-at-the-time magazines had an Abrams in it. Let me see if I can track down the stats.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:21 am 
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Commanding General
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:22 am
Posts: 2198
Gundancer74, you'd better use
Code:
 tags when posting HM* files.

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:28 pm 
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Major General
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Posts: 705
StarDate Vol 3 # 2 used CV Rules (the only battletech vehicle rules at the time) to represent the M1 with an AC/5 & M1A1 with an AC/10.

(this is about right considering that I have calculated 1 Specific Israeli 105 mm shell as doing 5 damage (most are considerably less))

another thing to consider is that the ranges of BattleTech weapons are NOT the Maximum Effective Range for the weapon that is stated for modern day weapons (to whit, the Maximum Effective range of the weapon is the range at which the shell would retain 80% of its damage - i.e. heavily influenced by Ballistic Kinetic Kil Weapons)

BattleTech Ranges are much shorter (possibly 1/3rd of their rightful range - a game mechanic intended to limit the playing area) and, even then, are geared solely for a weapons effectiveness against an armour that will not be developed for another 340 some odd years...

again, Modern day weapons give ranges based on retaining 80% of its damage while BT weapons report nerfed ranges to arbitrary standards...

why is this important?

Modern Day weapons would be represented in battletech with ranges reduced to be in line with BT ranges...

one way to do this is having modern day ranges in meters divided by 30 to get BT hexes (83) and then BT Long Range would be 1/3rd of that number... or.. 27 hexes... ... considering that armours of today are geared vs WWII armour (iirc m256 m829a3 rated as capable of penetrating 760 mm of RHAe) surrendering 11 hexes would be copocetic...

the 7.62 mm coaxil & 1 Pintle weapons would be represented by the BT rpg Semi-Portable or Portable MG in 1 pintle Mount and the coaxil represented by a BT LMGs. The Commanders Pintle could be said to be represented by a Turret mounted BT RPG Support MG


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:34 am 
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Private First Class
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Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:21 pm
Posts: 14
While that's all well and good, and the input is appreciated, I've updated all of my HM software with modern weapons, now. :P

Also, I like the idea of a 120mm Cannon like the Rhinemetall L/55 doing 12 points of A/P damage at a range of 85 hexes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:18 am 
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Loki
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 8:00 pm
Posts: 11444
Location: Minnesnowta
Yeah. I don't like adding that many maps down to play a game.

It sorta destroys the ability to play the game on a table, which is sorta the whole IDEA of the game.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:41 am 
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Private First Class
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Aye, but I'm writing this -mostly- as a CBT:RPG campaign. Not as an actual tabletop campaign, although there may be a couple tabletop scenarios.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:55 am 
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Here are some of the weapons I've already developed. These are made using reference material, such as Jane's library.
Code:
Weapon Name:	Weapon Class:	Heat:	Damage:	Minimum:	Short:	Medium:	Long:	Mass:
25mm Cannon	Ultra A/C	1	4	4	40	60	80	0.2
30mm Cannon	RAC	1	8	5	12	26	40	0.25
105mm Cannon	Ballistic	1	9	5	20	40	65	1.5
120mm Cannon	Ballistic	1	12	5	20	60	90	4.5
Smoke Grenade	One-Shot	0	0	0	0	0	1	0.1
Mk19 Grenade	Ballistic	1	3	0	15	30	45	0.25
Heavy MG (.50)	Ballistic	0	3	0	3	6	9	0.25
Light MG (7.62mm)	Ballistic	0	2	0	2	4	6	0.2


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Major General
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:21 pm
Posts: 705
what are you using to calculate the damage?

Ive figured out that the Size of the impact affects the damage (i.e. a 10 kg impactor with a 10 mm diameter will do more damage in BT than will a 10 kg impactor with a 30 mm diameter)

336.022 MJ per 1 mm diameter hole = 1 point of BT Damage
3,360.22 MJ per 10 mm diameter hole = 1 point of BT Damage
10,080.66 MJ per 30 mm diameter hole = 1 point of BT Damage
40,322.64 MJ per 120 mm diameter hole = 1 point of BT Damage

the m829a3 has a 120 mm diameter sabot and IIRC a 10 mm impactor

a single m2 shell fired from a M2HB would do 0.46 bt damage and it takes iirc 26 shells to do the 2 BT damage that the BT RPG Support Mg / BT MG is credited with.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:14 pm 
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Commanding General
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:22 am
Posts: 2198
Instead figuring out how to use CBT(:RPG) game systems to simulate this day's warfare, how about plaing games that were created just for that in the first place? From tactical scale computer games, one of the best is WinSPMBT, and it doesn't cost anything ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:10 am 
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Major General
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Does WinSPMBT have BattleMechs?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Quote:
Does WinSPMBT have BattleMechs?
Is Gundancer74 going to play his Abrams with/against 'Mechs?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Actually, there will be a 'Mech in the game. It's the M6A Knox, which I've placed in the submissions for the pre-Star League 'Mech design contest. The finished 'Mech, for this campaign, is somewhat different, though, and I'll post it here soon.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Quote:
another thing to consider is that the ranges of BattleTech weapons are NOT the Maximum Effective Range for the weapon that is stated for modern day weapons
I just read something from Tactical Operations that is relevant to this subject:
Quote:
The Missed Shot rule automatically uses the Extreme and LOS Range rule (see p. 85). ...and it hits its final extreme range hex, any remaining damage is ignored.
Modern direct fire weapons of this day have made kills far beyond 2 kilometers, and that is against armored targets. With the rules we have available for Classic BattleTech now, IS LB 2-X can't scratch paint from wooden barn that is beyond weapon's extreme range (36 hexes, or 1080 meters)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:47 pm 
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Quote:
Modern direct fire weapons of this day have made kills far beyond 2 kilometers, and that is against armored targets.
incorrect, the vehicles in service today are more the equivelent of Tech B Bar 7 or Tech C Bar 7 (i would have said Bar 10 for both, but Merc Sup II is clear that Bar 7 is the limit)


When I say "Armoured Targets" in relation to Battle Tech Weapon Ranges, I mean Specificly BM & CV using the equivelent of, at Minimum, Tech D Bar 10 Armour.

Quote:
With the rules we have available for Classic BattleTech now, IS LB 2-X can't scratch paint from wooden barn that is beyond weapon's extreme range (36 hexes, or 1080 meters)
the rules do not say that the weapons cannot do damage past the Extreme Range, only that the rules do not track the probabilities of doing Damage at that range.

Also, when a Kinetic Kill Weapon (most tank guns of today are not fireing explosive rounds) Hits past its "Maximum Effective Range" (in todays parlance) it is doing less damage than 80% of its possible damage due to the fall off of the shells velocity... Thus the "Maximum Effective Range" that is tracked by Janes and wargamers is not an Absolute, only a relative guage.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:01 am 
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Quote:
Modern direct fire weapons of this day have made kills far beyond 2 kilometers, and that is against armored targets. With the rules we have available for Classic BattleTech now, IS LB 2-X can't scratch paint from wooden barn that is beyond weapon's extreme range (36 hexes, or 1080 meters)
After reading TacOps bit more, I have re-evaluate statement above. There is rule LOS Range, which starts from end of Extreme Range and extends to as far as unit can see. This range doesn't apply to all weapons, and those weapons that can make use of it, score reduced damage. To-hit modifier is +8, which gives modified TN of no less than 12 for regular gunnery skill of 4 against any unit that isn't immobile. Still works at least against fortifications, other armored buildings, and landed DropShips.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Or for elite units, or for really lucky units. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:44 pm 
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Quote:
Or for elite units, or for really lucky units. :)
Neither is required when LOS Range is used with Bracing and Careful Aim rules. Those will give up to -5 TN modifier, which gives pretty reasonable chance of hit even against mobile units. With sufficient sized maps, GRFs & PXHs are gonna be real pains to hunt, if opposing force lacks sufficient number of equally/more mobile units. It makes unit immobile, but gives it Partial Cover as described in Taking Cover. I guess Hull Down isn't gonna work there...

So sniping 'Mech has this:
Defensive modifiers: -4 (immobile) +1 (Partial Cover) = -3 + (any terrain, like woods)
Target Number: 4 (Gunnery Skill) -2 (Bracing) -3 (Careful Aim) +8 (LOS Range) = 7 + (target movement and intervening terrain)

Sniper hunter has following:
Defensive modifier: normal movement & terrain
Attack modifier: 4 (gunnery skill) +8 (LOS Range) -4 (target immobile) +1 (Partial Cover) = 9 +(movement & intervening terrain)

[edit]
Fixed post

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[i]You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.[/i]

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Last edited by Matti on Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:55 am 
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Loki
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Yes. NOW imagine how hard it is to assault a Castle Brian with properly-cleared sightlines around it.

:devil2:

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 Post subject: Re: M1A3 Abrams MBT
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:56 am 
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Actually..

I would equip it with a Medium or Heavy Rifle Cannon from Tac Ops.

That is the rough analog of modern Cannons. From those we have calced the correct ranges for Battletech Ground Scale Weapons is either 9 or 10 Times their Board Game ranges.


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